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Stalling and Benches
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MonkeyMan576



Joined: Jul 02, 2008
Post   Posted: Apr 28, 2016 - 02:45 Reply with quote Back to top
That's like people complaining about 1-0 soccer(football) games. Most people agree that 1-0 games aren't as much fun to watch, everybody loves watching goals and if every soccer game could be 10-9 everyone would be happy. There are arena soccer games that are like that, but it is not top level football. Defense, as well as stalling, is not sexy, but it is solid fundamental sport. I will take someone who is trying his best to win a game, and know that I am playing against some of the best coaches the sport has to offer on the best bloodbowl website, than try to change the rules to make it a sexier game like on Cyanide. Yeah, it has flashier graphics, but it does not have the community or strong coaches that we have here. We are 11 pages into this forum topic, and I don't see any post where the original poster is acknowledging our points. It's always a "yeah, but", "yeah, but", "I don't thinK" or some equally silly argument. If you want sexy, go back to Cyanide. I know losing isn't fun, or losing when being stalled against, but it is part of the game and not going anywhere. The argument that stalling is against the spirit of the game is ludicrous, winning is the spirit of the game, and if I lose, even against a staller, i respect that the staller is probably a better coach than me.
Wreckage



Joined: Aug 15, 2004
Post   Posted: Apr 28, 2016 - 03:19 Reply with quote Back to top
I guess one of the biggest complains about soccer is that one of the most efficient tactics is to just stand with 10 players in front of the own goal for the entire game and to hope that the opposing team somewhat unfortunately loses the ball at some point so that the 11th player just can outrun everyone else and has to only deal with the keeper.
Works especially well in KOs.
MonkeyMan576



Joined: Jul 02, 2008
Post   Posted: Apr 28, 2016 - 03:23 Reply with quote Back to top
Wreckage wrote:
I guess one of the biggest complains about soccer is that one of the most efficient tactics is to just stand with 10 players in front of the own goal for the entire game and to hope that the opposing team somewhat unfortunately loses the ball at some point so that the 11th player just can outrun everyone else and has to only deal with the keeper.
Works especially well in KOs.


I really haven't seen a 9-0-1 formation that much in soccer, 4-4-2 is still the most widely used from what I have seeen.
harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007
Post   Posted: Apr 28, 2016 - 03:25 Reply with quote Back to top
;
MonkeyMan576 wrote:
I know losing isn't fun, or losing when being stalled against, but it is part of the game


MonkeyMan576 wrote:
It's always a "yeah, but", "yeah, but", "I don't thinK" or some equally silly argument.


Neutral

MonkeyMan576 wrote:
The argument that stalling is against the spirit of the game is ludicrous, winning is the spirit of the game


This goes a long way to explain why we keep getting Low Elves, Light Elves, Pink Elves and Fluffy Kitten Elves.

I'm guessing you've never heard of phrases like 'winning in the spirit of the game?'.

Here is a definition that I have found for you:

"Actions such as intentional fouling, cheating, dangerous plays, disrespectful conversations, and other ‘win at all costs’ behaviour are contrary to the Spirit of the Game."

Clearly winning is the spirit of the game is indeed incorrect and actually when you could use a word like 'ludicrous'.

However for us Spirit of the game is a little different. After all it's all about fouling, which actually hits a side issue; fouling/spirit.

GW don't generally use this as a description anymore. However when they were younger they named as their goal: (roughly)

"To make games, where the players enter a fantasy world with believable encounters. That is to say, events that are portrayed on the field/pitch/dungeon imitate what would happen if it were real life."

It's up to gamers to honour the code as best they can. A lot of GW (and similar) gamers have a natural affinity to the code. So when they perceive it to be broken, they get a little upset. It's breaking their fantasy mirror. As I said though 'Yes, I believe the code needs protecting; but not in place of common sense."
Wreckage



Joined: Aug 15, 2004
Post   Posted: Apr 28, 2016 - 03:28 Reply with quote Back to top
MonkeyMan576 wrote:
Wreckage wrote:
I guess one of the biggest complains about soccer is that one of the most efficient tactics is to just stand with 10 players in front of the own goal for the entire game and to hope that the opposing team somewhat unfortunately loses the ball at some point so that the 11th player just can outrun everyone else and has to only deal with the keeper.
Works especially well in KOs.


I really haven't seen a 9-0-1 formation that much in soccer, 4-4-2 is still the most widely used from what I have seeen.


Well, if you put everyone in front of the goal you'll still have diverse formations, the difference is just that you don't move the formation out of the own half. And I'd argue it's very common.
It doesn't work as well for league play tho since a tie is generally unfavorable. But when the opponent is superior pretty much anyone does it. The pressure to score is on the other team so might aswell go for a tie.
harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007
Post   Posted: Apr 28, 2016 - 03:28 Reply with quote Back to top
I'm thinking Wreckage was making a point of some such. Rather than being serious.

MonkeyMan576 wrote:

I really haven't seen a 9-0-1 formation that much in soccer, 4-4-2 is still the most widely used from what I have seeen.


4 4 2 is pretty rare in this day and age. It's usually 4 3 3, 4 5 1, 4 2 3 1 variants.
MonkeyMan576



Joined: Jul 02, 2008
Post   Posted: Apr 28, 2016 - 03:30 Reply with quote Back to top
harvestmouse wrote:
;
MonkeyMan576 wrote:
I know losing isn't fun, or losing when being stalled against, but it is part of the game


MonkeyMan576 wrote:
It's always a "yeah, but", "yeah, but", "I don't thinK" or some equally silly argument.


Neutral

MonkeyMan576 wrote:
The argument that stalling is against the spirit of the game is ludicrous, winning is the spirit of the game


This goes a long way to explain why we keep getting Low Elves, Light Elves, Pink Elves and Fluffy Kitten Elves.

I'm guessing you've never heard of phrases like 'winning in the spirit of the game?'.

Here is a definition that I have found for you:

"Actions such as intentional fouling, cheating, dangerous plays, disrespectful conversations, and other ‘win at all costs’ behaviour are contrary to the Spirit of the Game."

Clearly winning is the spirit of the game is indeed incorrect and actually when you could use a word like 'ludicrous'.

However for us Spirit of the game is a little different. After all it's all about fouling, which actually hits a side issue; fouling/spirit.

GW don't generally use this as a description anymore. However when they were younger they named as their goal: (roughly)

"To make games, where the players enter a fantasy world with believable encounters. That is to say, events that are portrayed on the field/pitch/dungeon imitate what would happen if it were real life."

It's up to gamers to honour the code as best they can. A lot of GW (and similar) gamers have a natural affinity to the code. So when they perceive it to be broken, they get a little upset. It's breaking their fantasy mirror. As I said though 'Yes, I believe the code needs protecting; but not in place of common sense."


If the goal is to mimic real life, then stalling would happen a lot more often than it does.
harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007
Post   Posted: Apr 28, 2016 - 03:40 Reply with quote Back to top
MonkeyMan576 wrote:

If the goal is to mimic real life, then stalling would happen a lot more often than it does.


Not to mimic real life. To mimic Blood Bowl if it were real.

Did you actually read what I wrote? Or do I have to re-iterate it for you?

To clarify the points.

1. A lot of new coaches have a problem with it, so there must be a problem with it.
2. What actually is the problem? That's hard to clarify.
3. I believe it actually has something to do with the turn based nature of the game, and how we use the stall; rather than the act of stalling itself.
MonkeyMan576



Joined: Jul 02, 2008
Post   Posted: Apr 28, 2016 - 03:44 Reply with quote Back to top
harvestmouse wrote:
MonkeyMan576 wrote:

If the goal is to mimic real life, then stalling would happen a lot more often than it does.


Not to mimic real life. To mimic Blood Bowl if it were real.

Did you actually read what I wrote? Or do I have to re-iterate it for you?

To clarify the points.

1. A lot of new coaches have a problem with it, so there must be a problem with it.
2. What actually is the problem? That's hard to clarify.
3. I believe it actually has something to do with the turn based nature of the game, and how we use the stall; rather than the act of stalling itself.


I think the problem is that coaches don't like losing, even if it's against a better coach, and will try to blame the rules or game culture to make themselves feel better.
Jeffro



Joined: Jan 22, 2009
Post   Posted: Apr 28, 2016 - 04:08 Reply with quote Back to top
My first game against Purplegoo (in a tournament where I had just somehow beaten Purplechest)... Goo stalled the crap out of me for the victory. I was schooled. Utterly taken to class and shown a different level of play of which I was ignorant. And since then I have been practicing the art of the "Elf Stall". It's difficult. Much more difficult than scoring a bunch... but less difficult than lining up on the LOS a bunch of times to get your AV7 smashed over and over again.

People who have a problem with stalling only truly have a problem with losing. If folks stalled and it fails, said coach doesn't complain about stalling that allowed him to win. Complainer coach only has a problem with it when he can't do anything about it. It *IS* part of the game. As is fouling. It confounds me when people take offense to these actions. Don't like it when someone does it?!? Find a way within the game to keep it from happening. Don't try to change rules because you are flummoxed and can't deal.
MonkeyMan576



Joined: Jul 02, 2008
Post   Posted: Apr 28, 2016 - 04:15 Reply with quote Back to top
I think the problem is coaches with Purple in their name...
harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007
Post   Posted: Apr 28, 2016 - 04:25 Reply with quote Back to top
Is it losing though? Let's use me as an example.

I play my own league vs myself. I have a non-stall policy. As I'm only playing vs me, I know the policy and I don't abuse it. I don't have a problem with losing against myself.

However on FUMBBL I stall. I actually do enjoy a good stall. About a year ago I was playing stunty and my opponent was on the TD line and he asked me "What are your feelings on stalling in Stunty?"

I.e. will you get angry if I stall. I said "My feelings is that the Stunty division should be played how you like, but shouldn't be treated like a different division because it's Stunty. And in your position, I would stall."

He'd recently come across a coach that he stalled on in Stunty and the coach didn't like it.

I think that you guys have a point; in that a coach is more likely to complain and get fed up if they do lose or get schooled. However I don't think the topic is as simple as losing though.
MonkeyMan576



Joined: Jul 02, 2008
Post   Posted: Apr 28, 2016 - 04:44 Reply with quote Back to top
It's like playing baseball and saying using the double switch is against the spirit of the game, because other coaches utilize it better than you. At some point the argument becomes moot, because it's in the rules and it's not going to change.
Jeffro



Joined: Jan 22, 2009
Post   Posted: Apr 28, 2016 - 04:46 Reply with quote Back to top
I will agree to your point that it may not be all about losing. In can and does include ignorance of an alternate form of strategy and intolerance of that which one is ignorant.
harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007
Post   Posted: Apr 28, 2016 - 04:54 Reply with quote Back to top
MonkeyMan576 wrote:
It's like playing baseball and saying using the double switch is against the spirit of the game, because other coaches utilize it better than you. At some point the argument becomes moot, because it's in the rules and it's not going to change.


No, you just don't get it. Against the spirit of the game, would be like being able to use a double switch like tactic (just briefly read about it) on a table top or computer game version of baseball, which differs the real game and/or from intended in the game version.

From what I can tell, fair play rules don't go down too well in professional American sports compared to win at all costs (within the rules of the game).
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