Zombie69
Joined: Jul 02, 2007
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 Posted:
Nov 09, 2009 - 18:17 |
 
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I'd hate to have tournaments annouced one day in advance (not everyone checks in every day, so many would miss it) with random TR (this only benefits people with lots of teams, who are likely to have one ready around the relevant TR).
I think it's a good thing that all tour events are very similar. Makes it less wacky and more competitive imo. |
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Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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Nov 09, 2009 - 18:26 |
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I'm not convinced a tournament where the first placed guy has double the second guy's amount of points can be described as competitive.
If the Tiger Woods of BB was alive and walking amongst us (and I contend in the game of BB it is imposible to have such a player), even he wouldn't be able to get double the points of the second guy on a level playing field.
Now, you tell me (because I've not followed it at all), do you believe Circ to be doubly as good as the rest of the field, lucky, or just the guy that's worked the format out best?
They seem to be mini Majors to me - and that is my critisim. Yes, be a good coach. But ensure you have the best car (to follow the F1 analogy - theres always way more to it than the driver). Variety would draw me in.
Again - who cares if I'm drawn in? Fair question! |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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Nov 09, 2009 - 18:35 |
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Double the points is deceptive. Several competitors are within just a few wins of equalling Circ.
Adding racial bonuses to the tour race would be an excellent idea. Flat entry is a terrible idea. |
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Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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Nov 09, 2009 - 18:39 |
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Fair enough, young sod, again, I've paid little attention as I found it bland.
Just throwing ideas out there as asked. I'd love to be involved in some sort of tour, but obviously not as is. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Nov 09, 2009 - 18:46 |
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Gratz Circ!!!!
So who the 'ell are you then? 
I didn't play much either but that was mainly because of time issues.
| Purplegoo wrote: |
1. Minmaxing isn't ever going away. But it can be minimised. Flat entry is a good idea, and I think it worked well in the Major it was used in. I'd love to announce an event TOMORROW not allowing people to 'prepare' teams, at random TRs like 164 or something, really make it a fair representation of the teams you have now, not the teams you've prepared. That's probably too short notice to be workable, but you get the idea. |
No notice means that many people will have no teams in the right TR range for the tournament. I would rather play minmaxers than be entering TR150 tournaments with a TR100 team.
| Purplegoo wrote: |
2. The Tours should be more individual, more distinctive. I've fleshed this out before (not here, but in a Tourney admin portion of the forum), but howabout a Lustiran smash (double points for Zons, Lizzies, Norse that Tour), or *insert your own fluff*. SOME way of varying those races. Do I go with my vanilla Undead team, or do I go Lizzies and risk getting beat for double points? Make one a Swiss, use the new King of the Hill, etc. Make it interesting. |
I don't really like swiss/KoH as you have no chance to get ahead so for me there would be more chance of a forfeit later. With swiss I'm sure that a lot of people would stop playing after a couple of defeats.
| Purplegoo wrote: |
3. I like the idea of an end of year top 8 KO. Make it worth double - triple points, a way of upsetting the apple cart for those that had a holiday and missed a Tour, etc. /don't make it for the Championship, that would be annoying.
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I do like the end of season tourney. It keeps the tour alive longer for those who know that they won't win the whole thing.
I would prefer something like 1/2/4/8/14/20 for the scoring.
+ maybe a bit extra for being in the top group. |
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Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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Nov 09, 2009 - 18:48 |
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The 24 hours notice thing, as I acknoledged at the time, isn't workable in the real World, but I hope you saw the point. It's not about doing that specifically so much as making the thing run with 'real' teams.
Again though, meh I suppose. There's not been an offical FUMBBL tourney ran that way to date and they're still going strong, so you may as well carry on as is. |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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Nov 09, 2009 - 18:50 |
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| Purplegoo wrote: | 1. Minmaxing isn't ever going away. But it can be minimised. Flat entry is a good idea, and I think it worked well in the Major it was used in. I'd love to announce an event TOMORROW not allowing people to 'prepare' teams, at random TRs like 164 or something, really make it a fair representation of the teams you have now, not the teams you've prepared. That's probably too short notice to be workable, but you get the idea.
2. The Tours should be more individual, more distinctive. I've fleshed this out before (not here, but in a Tourney admin portion of the forum), but howabout a Lustiran smash (double points for Zons, Lizzies, Norse that Tour), or *insert your own fluff*. SOME way of varying those races. Do I go with my vanilla Undead team, or do I go Lizzies and risk getting beat for double points? Make one a Swiss, use the new King of the Hill, etc. Make it interesting.
3. I like the idea of an end of year top 8 KO. Make it worth double - triple points, a way of upsetting the apple cart for those that had a holiday and missed a Tour, etc. /don't make it for the Championship, that would be annoying. |
1) Minmaxing is part of the game. I guess in such a format you could look at building your team abit like building your deck in magic the gathering. I had the flat entry on my list and having a few tourneys as flat entry seems good. The whole 'tourney on short notice' like in the [B] minors works best in [B] I guess, where you can dedicate a weeks worth of games to one team.
I rather hand out advantage to coaches that can plan than to coaches that just happen to have a good team available at the drawn TR or have enough connections to get good prep-games even on short notice.
2) If you remember the big tourney thread last year, I was ready to give it a go and flesh it out. It wasn`t recieved that well. I would be OK with giving bonus points if certain conditions are met, but others might be more hesitant.
3) I would make it all or nothing. The grand finale and whoever wins this KO tourney wins the tour. Else you can`t avoid it, that the tour is decided before the last game is played. |
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Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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Nov 09, 2009 - 19:05 |
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It's cool Circ, as I said, just throwing ideas out there. You and I never agree on anything anyway, so it’s to be expected.
Are we in the camp of 'Minmaxing is part of the game' not 'Minmaxing is sad, but we have to live with it' then? Because if we disagree on that point, we're probably poles apart in the long term anyway.
Good point on 2, but that was a small amount of people, not your entire population of Tour-ists. As for 3, not to my taste. If you've worked damn hard all year and walked away with the thing, getting done in the playoffs by the 8th seed who played a couple of events with the Count when you have to go to work unexpectantly for a week and don't have a good team…. Is rubbish. But that's not my call. 
Instead of instant ish tourneys, you could get everyone to apply at the SMACK limits, and play the Tour at the limit with the most applications (obviously you could apply to them all). Then play it, cross it off the list, until you'd done all 6. Brings in a bit of calculated randomness? Not even sure if I like that one. 
Anyway, enough talking from me! I'm out! |
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Zombie69
Joined: Jul 02, 2007
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Nov 09, 2009 - 19:58 |
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| SillySod wrote: | | Double the points is deceptive. Several competitors are within just a few wins of equalling Circ. |
And most of those who could have beaten him to the title didn't participate in every event. If they had, the race would have been closer still.
As for how far ahead he was, if i win the final of the next to last tour event (which will happen this week and where i'm the clear favorite) and CircularLogic gets eliminated from the last event in one of the first 2 rounds (quite likely), the difference between me and him will be just one game. In the one event where i met him in the final, if i had beaten him there, i would have had 16 more points and he would have had 16 fewer, which would have been enough for him to finish second overall.
I don't think that a whole 8-tournament tour being decided in the end by just one game can be considered all that lopsided. |
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Zombie69
Joined: Jul 02, 2007
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Nov 09, 2009 - 20:06 |
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| Purplegoo wrote: | | Instead of instant ish tourneys, you could get everyone to apply at the SMACK limits, and play the Tour at the limit with the most applications (obviously you could apply to them all). Then play it, cross it off the list, until you'd done all 6. Brings in a bit of calculated randomness? Not even sure if I like that one. |
Terrible idea, as it forces people to keep 6 good teams ready at 6 different TR levels. If they don't, they miss out. |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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Nov 09, 2009 - 21:05 |
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| Zombie69 wrote: | | Purplegoo wrote: | | Instead of instant ish tourneys, you could get everyone to apply at the SMACK limits, and play the Tour at the limit with the most applications (obviously you could apply to them all). Then play it, cross it off the list, until you'd done all 6. Brings in a bit of calculated randomness? Not even sure if I like that one. |
Terrible idea, as it forces people to keep 6 good teams ready at 6 different TR levels. If they don't, they miss out. |
Yes, that`s my concern, too. |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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Nov 09, 2009 - 21:15 |
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| Purplegoo wrote: | | Are we in the camp of 'Minmaxing is part of the game' not 'Minmaxing is sad, but we have to live with it' then? Because if we disagree on that point, we're probably poles apart in the long term anyway. |
That depends on what you call minmaxing. There are cases that are just cheap (the good old 11 zombies 3FF 1RR necro team with 2 games cherry games to give 2 zombies DP and a wad of cash to go nuts with ramtut and count each game at TR125), there are others, where it`s just coaching. Where does one start and the other end?
Choosing a healthy team with no/few injuries? Cheese or coaching?
Choosing a race that does well at the given TR? Cheese or coaching?
Training a team up, so that it`s still in the initial updraft (with skills evenly distributed)? Cheese or coaching?
Gunning for a low/medium FF? Cheese or coaching?
Playing, so that every player has just enough SPP for his latest skill to save TR? Cheese or coaching?
=========================
Cycling through players to get good skill rolls while staying at the desired TR level? Cheese or coaching?
Banking cash for stars? Cheese or coaching?
I think I draw the line where indicated, but I`m sure others do elsewhere. The tourney schedule is known and crafting a competitive tourney team isn`t exactly rocket science. But why don`t you tell me where you draw the line and what you would do to reduce 'teh cheese'? |
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Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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Nov 09, 2009 - 21:45 |
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| CircularLogic wrote: | | Zombie69 wrote: | | Purplegoo wrote: | | Instead of instant ish tourneys, you could get everyone to apply at the SMACK limits, and play the Tour at the limit with the most applications (obviously you could apply to them all). Then play it, cross it off the list, until you'd done all 6. Brings in a bit of calculated randomness? Not even sure if I like that one. |
Terrible idea, as it forces people to keep 6 good teams ready at 6 different TR levels. If they don't, they miss out. |
Yes, that`s my concern, too. |
Yep, it isnt ideal, I agree. Just thinking out loud; there must be some mechanism to get to the end desired, I just haven't put my finger on the means. And, to be honest, it's probably not an event I'm interested enough in atm to do the work. I've dedicated more time than I meant to to the thread already! I think theres a great event here somewhere, it just needs polish.
And as for minmaxing and lines; isn't a discussion worth having. Many forum inches, no clear answer, nothing ever changes (rightly or wrongly) anyway. Best to draw your line under this post and drop it, for the sanity of all. |
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BooAhl
Joined: Sep 02, 2004
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Nov 09, 2009 - 21:51 |
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You should include the filler team draw so all teams that apply gets the chance to play. Because of this I didnt win the tour this year.
BA |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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Nov 09, 2009 - 22:16 |
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Either this or teams get accepted by tourpoints first, then TR. The problem with filler teams is that it gives a few people free points. Which isn`t really a good thing. |
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