Bytez0r
Joined: May 28, 2005
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 Posted:
Jan 18, 2009 - 14:39 |
 
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hmm, i disagree!
theres no such thing as a 'lame' stradegy. i play to win, useing whatever force is nessesarry.
only an idiot would turn down a +ma on a gutter/we catcher (non dobble). think about the possebillities with a high MA strip ball block/sidestep player. you cant run your thrower to safety in the back, theres allways a chance of a far blitz.
haveing high MA can be used for other thing as one turning, but useing a one turn is a perfectly valid option. and haveing higher MA tend to lower the risk of makeing a oneturn (less GFI, less push and such). |
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Eddy
Joined: Aug 04, 2004
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Jan 18, 2009 - 14:39 |
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+MA is great, and a 11 MA GR is great. What is lame is going out of your way to make a one-turner, like getting VLL on a doubles and then Sprint. This player is useless at everything except scoring in one-turn.
But then again, if you think it's a great tactic, go for it, why do you care if it's frowned upon? I mean, we're stalling and surfing and fouling even if some people hate it... |
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Reisender
Joined: Sep 29, 2007
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Jan 18, 2009 - 14:44 |
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i see your points with the problems of oneturners.... its kinda boring (even if you have them yourself) and hogs spp, plus you lack other skills...
therefore with my rats i would prefer dauntless on a double or even diving tackle instead of sprint on a ma 10 gr...
however for tourneys i would built a single oneturner on a high ts skaven team (only had one in my 200 games rats)
still i think oneturning with ma9 is very difficult if the opponent sets up smart (that means not defending the goal line but setting up to prevent pushes) - even without sidesteppers.... vs a high ts orc team e.g. you can easily find yourself having to push around the troll with 2 standfirm bobs at his side.... this and some player set up nicely behind that makes it very very improbable to oneturn (and even without standfirmers you can force risky dodges and blocks for the pushes) |
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vanGorn
Joined: Feb 24, 2004
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Jan 18, 2009 - 15:01 |
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Well, and pervert defense can break the best setup for a push enabled oneturner. |
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Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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Jan 18, 2009 - 15:06 |
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One turning is what it is - I don't really see it as any different to Claw/RSC or DP or anything else, it's just a tactic.
Personally, I think if you're jammy enough to roll +Ma, +Ma on a Ma 9 player, then good luck to you. I've only had one of these guys once, and I vividly remember him being the only thing that got me a result one game. He niggled, he got fired. He was pretty handy, generally a Thrower on offence or a sweeper on defence, only in one game did I have to resort to one turning.
If you're wasting skill rolls on Sprint, you need to learn to push. There be a wasted skill. |
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Bytez0r
Joined: May 28, 2005
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Jan 18, 2009 - 15:13 |
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i wouldent fire a catcher like that, a true game winner  toss him strip ball allso :] |
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Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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Jan 18, 2009 - 15:13 |
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Niggled in [R] = sacked.
No player is too good to survive a niggle in open play, no-one.  |
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torsoboy
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
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Jan 18, 2009 - 15:17 |
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| Eddy wrote: | | But then again, if you think it's a great tactic, go for it, why do you care if it's frowned upon? I mean, we're stalling and surfing and fouling even if some people hate it... |
The point is that there is common opinion on what sort of things are acceptable, and what sort of things are frowned upon. The reasons given to things that are acceptable, should also be applicable to those that are frowned upon. So, if stalling, fouling, claw/rsc, etc. are ok because they help to win games, then oneturners should be ok because they also help to win games.
I'm just pointing this out because I find folk psychology fascinating. |
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The plural of anecdote isn't data. |
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Eddy
Joined: Aug 04, 2004
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Jan 18, 2009 - 15:26 |
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| torsoboy wrote: | So, if stalling, fouling, claw/rsc, etc. are ok because they help to win games, then oneturners should be ok because they also help to win games.
I'm just pointing this out because I find folk psychology fascinating. |
They're not the same though. It is effectively not possible to defend against a one-turner, you can only hope for a failed roll.
It is always possible to defend against stalling and surfing. Fouling and Blocking (with damage skills) is closer to one-turning, but it's a core part of the game that involves player interaction, assists, etc. One-turning is kind of "play alone".
But again, i must stress that, myself (the example i know best =P), i don't think one-turning is lame. I think it's a waste to turn a player into a one-turner with Sprint and VLL. It's different. It's like saying it's lame that a Claw/MB player gets RSC on a next doubles =) |
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'The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance.'
Robert R. Coveyou |
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torsoboy
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
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Jan 18, 2009 - 15:30 |
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| Eddy wrote: | They're not the same though. It is effectively not possible to defend against a one-turner, you can only hope for a failed roll.
It is always possible to defend against stalling and surfing. Fouling and Blocking (with damage skills) is closer to one-turning, but it's a core part of the game that involves player interaction, assists, etc. One-turning is kind of "play alone".
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Again, I'm seeing two opinions that collide.
Some say: "there are better skill choices than vll/sprint, etc."
Some say: "one-turners are so good that they cannot effectively defended against" |
_________________
The plural of anecdote isn't data. |
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Eddy
Joined: Aug 04, 2004
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Jan 18, 2009 - 15:35 |
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I say both, but they don't collide.
The problem with VLL and Sprint is that they're very one-sided. They require no strategy, and are only useful for an OTS. You'd get a better GR with Dauntless and Block, and it still might work for an OTS too. |
_________________
'The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance.'
Robert R. Coveyou |
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torsoboy
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
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Jan 18, 2009 - 15:50 |
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| Eddy wrote: | I say both, but they don't collide.
The problem with VLL and Sprint is that they're very one-sided. They require no strategy, and are only useful for an OTS. You'd get a better GR with Dauntless and Block, and it still might work for an OTS too. |
I agree with you that it requires little strategy, if at all.
I gave the argument that one-turners are only good for one-turning some more thought and found it senseless. My thrower got safe throw, accurate, strong arm - you could say she's only good for throwing. But that's exactly what I made her to do. If I make a one-turner, of course I want it to be very good at that... |
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The plural of anecdote isn't data. |
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Eddy
Joined: Aug 04, 2004
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Jan 18, 2009 - 15:53 |
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Except that your Thrower is not a key player like your Gutter Runner. That being said, i'd probably say it's useless to give all that to your Thrower |
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'The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance.'
Robert R. Coveyou |
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FischerKing
Joined: Oct 25, 2003
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Jan 18, 2009 - 16:03 |
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Ok, here is my point on this matter.
I hate natural oneturners, and I dont see the comparison with stalling/fouling/surfing at all. It is extremely easy to score with a natural oneturner, and you simply cannot defend against it better than to hope for a failed block or a failed dodge or go for it roll. You can setup a defensive line out of blitzrange to force at least a 4+ dodge, but if he has more than one turn that just means an easy two turner and no chance of sacking him. Stalling on the other hand is a very important strategy for a slow team against a fast team, and if the slow team couldnt stall it would seriously tip the balance in those matchups towards the fast team, and really, we want both teams to have a chance to winn. Mostly people complaining about stalling and crowdsurfing is inexperienced coaches who is doing something wrong.
The same thing cannot be said though for people complaining about oneturners, as oneturners are one of those great options in the game that can act as a substitute for coaching skills: "You have a brain but I have a oneturner, 4 dirty players and a claw/rsc Wermin". I have seen it many times in leagues, that an unsuccesfull team developes a oneturner, uses him to score every single time, and suddenly starts winning games. We have this coach in our league who has the longest loss streak in the history of the league, loosing 16 games in a row before retiring his dwarves. He then turned to skaven and kept loosing games untill he got his oneturner, were his winn % suddenly jumped to 50 and he managed to take third place in one season. Or a mediocre woodelf team in our league not advancing to the play-offs in 2 or 3 seasons before developing a oneturner, and then suddenly becomming a top team.
You can push your players to a oneturning score, and that is a battle were both the pushing team and the defending team has chances, and there are so many ways of doing it that its really a battle between the setup and the pushing players abilitys to find the flaws in it, so I have no problems with that one. A natural oneturner is just a matter of the other coach'es block & go for it dice (and in a league the guy with the oneturner is often the one who is most likely to have the loaded dice too).
I feel the same way about Claw/RSC and teams that field more than one dirty player.
There are valid complaints about oneturners screwing up your teams, and the most valid point I would say, is that oneturners screw up you coaching skills. But still, used right, they are horribly good. |
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torsoboy
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
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Jan 18, 2009 - 16:10 |
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| Eddy wrote: | | Except that your Thrower is not a key player like your Gutter Runner. |
| FischerKing wrote: | Ok, here is my point on this matter.
It is extremely easy to score with a natural oneturner, and you simply cannot defend against it better than to hope for a failed block or a failed dodge or go for it roll.
[...]
Mostly people complaining about stalling and crowdsurfing is inexperienced coaches who is doing something wrong.
The same thing cannot be said though for people complaining about oneturners, as oneturners are one of those great options in the game that can act as a substitute for coaching skills: "You have a brain but I have a oneturner, 4 dirty players and a claw/rsc Wermin". |
So the argument is a skill versus no skill thing. I get that, except that when you are in a game that you absolutely have to win (say, for a Major Ranked tourney), you'll be better off using the best tools. A kungfu master may complain that the other guy has a gun, but in the end winning is all that matters.
| Quote: | | But still, used right, they are horribly good. |
Agreed.
| vanGorn wrote: | | Well, and pervert defense can break the best setup for a push enabled oneturner. |
Damn perverts! |
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The plural of anecdote isn't data.
Last edited by torsoboy on %b %18, %2009 - %16:%Jan; edited 2 times in total |
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