Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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 Posted:
Jul 30, 2012 - 19:20 |
 
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| pythrr wrote: | Shiney poo is still poo.  |
can you polish shiney poo? or do you run in to the same problems as mat poo? |
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WhatBall
Joined: Aug 21, 2008
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Jul 30, 2012 - 20:50 |
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A sampling from the Cyanide forums on why people avoid FUMBBL. This is after going through about 1/3 of the mentions of FUMBBL for comments on why people don't play here. This is meant to show what other people perceive FUMBBL is so we can look at improvements, not to start a flame war. The main issues boil down to:
- graphics & site navigation
- apparently a harsh community
- word of mouth: people who have 'heard' how awful FUMBBL is
| Quote: | fumbbl graphics are so terrible, i cant deal with it, i feel like im playing space crusade on a 286
i really wish cyanide/focus got their act together and put a bug-free, full rule/team version of blood bowl that we deserve, but its not going to happen |
| Quote: | | i agree matt, but i just bought a new pc and ill be damned if im gonna "waste it" on fumbbl graphics... i'm just not gonna play anymore blood bowl until a decent version comes out, there's waaay too many good games to play, mass effect 3, new witcher, new assassins ... |
| Quote: | | Ive had a few really nice coaches warn me off fumbbl as they say there are a large number of arrogant @$$holes/whiners. So I'm not likely to switch anytime soon.... I had a look to see what all the fuss was about, but the graphics put me off. Shame ... |
| Quote: | Gotta agree with VoodooMike here... (I believe it's the first time  ) I just signed up on FUMBBL, and it is a VERY confusing site to look at... A lot of the links to work with your team (Create team, profile, ect.) is almost Invisible... Things are generally hard ... |
| Quote: | Wasn't Aimed at you, like people has said FUMBBL will have EVERY! single skill soon including fan favourate which cyanide don't have.
And I agree people and the admins over there are so far up there own ass it's unbeleavable. |
| Quote: | Some people are in a similar boat to me: I don't have the best eyeballs and FUMBBL really makes me squint so I can't play there.
BB:LE is "good enough" for online play plus I have a tabletop league so my BB addiction is well served. |
| Quote: | | Fumbbl's ok, but I have encountered some immense dick heads on there - some of the rudest and most downright unpleasant coaches I've ever played against - and I've played against a lot. |
| Quote: | | All I want to do is sit down, fire up a game, crack open a beer and throw some dice, but the standard of competition on Fumbbl is a little outside of my comfort zone compared with Cyanide's BB. I play laid back and loose in Cyanide's BB I win some, I lose some... no big ... |
| Quote: | | As for Kickstarter BB I guess people would actually be better of supporting this FUMBBL project to get better graphics and support (sorry never played it so I am just taking myths for truths here) or live with the commercial product and its flaws. |
| Quote: | | The sad truth is that we, as a community, are pretty tied up; This is the only decent Blood Bowl simulator out there (and don't cry "FUMBBL".. it looks like Nethack (yes, I'm that old) and won't "do it" for the vast majority of players). |
| Quote: | | I don't know much about FUMBBL other than when I tried it years ago. I wasnt too impressed back then, and the crowd that played the game wasn't that friendly either...but then playing BB against strangers was never my thing. |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Jul 30, 2012 - 22:18 |
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I'm going to have a go at answering these.
| Quote: | fumbbl graphics are so terrible, i cant deal with it, i feel like im playing space crusade on a 286
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This will answer all the graphics related critics. Well graphics wise there isn't much we can do. Improve icons and pitches maybe, however I believe any such changes would be lost on coaches such as this. Also, coaches that are so graphically orientated are in the right place. That in all likelyhood that's better for us. Coaches that care for graphics over substance, aren't what we are looking for. You also have to make some allowance for the 'them and us' stance. For example an xbox 360 player will always say the 360 is better in every way over a PS3, just because that's the decision they made at the time.
| Quote: | | Ive had a few really nice coaches warn me off fumbbl as they say there are a large number of arrogant @$$holes/whiners. So I'm not likely to switch anytime soon.... I had a look to see what all the fuss was about, but the graphics put me off. Shame ... |
Well, I tend to disagree with this on the whole. Rules here are much stiffer than Cyanide regarding anti-social play. Coaches that break site rules, and generally give other coaches are bad time, are brought into line. Which they aren't over there as simply there isn't a global administration over looking anti social play. I believe you stand a much better chance of playing and finishing a match in good spirit here, than you do at cyanide (in an open environment). Blackbox however, doesn't help things socially, however that is pointed out.
| Quote: | | Gotta agree with VoodooMike here... (I believe it's the first time ) I just signed up on FUMBBL, and it is a VERY confusing site to look at... A lot of the links to work with your team (Create team, profile, ect.) is almost Invisible... Things are generally hard ... |
Well, we've all been through this. I guess yes and no. FUMBBL was my first ever PC gaming experience, and I did find it very daunting. I lurked for around a year, before I plucked up the courage and joined and tried to jump in. Now things I guess are much easier than then (no client to download, with patches, and irc isn't that important), however as novice I managed it, (fortunately knowing I needed irc and a cherrypicker with the patience to take me through the steps for an easy win). Finding things on the site, however can be difficult. So of all the complaints, this is the most legitimate.
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And I agree people and the admins over there are so far up there own ass it's unbeleavable. |
A few points here. 1. This isn't a service site. Christer has firm rules, and expects coaches to abide by them. If they don't, they get shown the door. Will we get negative publicity from that, sure. But coaches need to understand, this isn't a service site like Cyanide.
2. If a coach is permabanned from the site, for an infringement, where will they go and what will their attitude be? The above comment I believe.
3. All staff actions are logged. So staff stay within the rules. Every coach has agreed to have read and understood the site rules, if they then break the site rules, they only have themselves to blame for any actions taken.
Cases like this are simply of a coach who has broken a site rule, and never expected the staff to come down on them hard. They only have themselves to blame. The attitude of the staff I admit isn't always the best (me being the worst) however it's very hard finding that balance of being firm but friendly, when you are being lied to, deceived and talking to coaches with attitudes themselves.
| Quote: | Some people are in a similar boat to me: I don't have the best eyeballs and FUMBBL really makes me squint so I can't play there.
BB:LE is "good enough" for online play plus I have a tabletop league so my BB addiction is well served. |
Eventually, this will be fixed. However as you know whatball, that's a lot of work creating different sized clients. I certainly don't wished to be involved in this project. Christer has experimented with icon software to change sizes, but with so few contributors, it's a long way off.
| Quote: | | All I want to do is sit down, fire up a game, crack open a beer and throw some dice, but the standard of competition on Fumbbl is a little outside of my comfort zone compared with Cyanide's BB. I play laid back and loose in Cyanide's BB I win some, I lose some... no big ... |
Any suggestions? Personally I'd like to divisionalise fumbbl to a certain extent. However that isn't what Christer wants. 145 club helps, but that isn't for the casual gamer. Also an Academy division doesn't really help here either.
| Quote: | | I don't know much about FUMBBL other than when I tried it years ago. I wasnt too impressed back then, and the crowd that played the game wasn't that friendly either...but then playing BB against strangers was never my thing. |
Isn't this the internet fullstop? I've joined a few internet communities, and FUMBBL is far from the worst. If you come here with the right attitude, I believe you can get on. If you come here with 'I'm from Cyanide, I'll give you guys a try but I'm not expecting much' attitude. You'll be shown the door quickly (and I'll be at the front). |
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zakatan
Joined: May 17, 2008
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| Posted:
Jul 30, 2012 - 22:52 |
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| Quote: | | All I want to do is sit down, fire up a game, crack open a beer and throw some dice, but the standard of competition on Fumbbl is a little outside of my comfort zone compared with Cyanide's BB. I play laid back and loose in Cyanide's BB I win some, I lose some... no big ... |
I find this specially amusing: "Not playing there because they are too good". Awesome. |
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spubbbba
Joined: Jul 31, 2006
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Jul 30, 2012 - 23:07 |
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Well there is not much we can do about the graphics. Some people won't care about the buggy code or awful GUI if they get to see the prettier pictures.
Personally I find it hard to tell the Cyanide players apart and see tackle zones clearly. Also having the animation of players slowly plod through every square is a pain.
I don't know how Fumbbl has got such a bad rep, it's probably as unlike Cyanide we actually deal with cheaters so those who get caught go crying to other forums. I've found the jerk to fun opponent exactly the same on fumbbl as I have on cyanide and in tabletop tournaments.
To some extent I think we should be a little elitist, I'd rather we had 100 cool and 400 decent coaches than 200 cool, 800 decent and 200 jerks.
That being said resurrecting Academy may not be a bad thing. [L] tends to be rather quiet and so that pushes newbies towards [R] and [B]. So a bad experience getting cherrypicked or griefed early on can colour the fumbbl experience.
Also if someone puts the effort in then Fummbl coaches are on the whole very welcoming. If they are rude or impatient then they usually get short shrift. |
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WhatBall
Joined: Aug 21, 2008
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Jul 30, 2012 - 23:14 |
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Good recap Harvestmouse and I agree with you and Spubbbba. I like the graphic style here for all the reasons you stated. And maybe some personally vested interest too.  I wouldn't mind having the same style as we have now, but with better, bigger (scalable) icons. I know my friend and others with really big monitors complain that the client is very tiny with the high-resolutions. |
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Last edited by WhatBall on %b %30, %2012 - %23:%Jul; edited 1 time in total |
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dode74
Joined: Aug 14, 2009
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Jul 30, 2012 - 23:22 |
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Rather wasted here, isn't it?
(Much as I'd like it to be, please don't post that on Cyanide though - Focus have banned the advertising of "competing IP products" there, but if it's not blatantly offering an alternative then talk about FUMBBL in the context of general BB and online play is being let through).
Personally I play on Cyanide mostly because that's where my league plays, and I enjoy that community. I come here for the (fewer than I would like) pick-up games I play because, ultimately, I want to play a game which will almost certainly be finished - an environment which I have done what I can to create on Cyanide with FOL, but the very limited tools I have mean it simply can't compete with here for that.
The FUMBBL client is far more user-friendly than it was when I first joined in 2008. The old client, and the lack of user-friendliness of it, is probably the reason I ended up on Cyanide rather than here. Now it's simple, but the site itself is a little arcane. The menu system isn't massively intuitive, and there area whole bunch of pages I've been given links for but can't find a way to navigate to directly (the blackbox activation page, for example). That kind of thing can put people off in an age where intuitive interfaces rule (see the iPhone for an example).
While the client graphics themselves are relatively unimportant, I think the sizing and, more importantly, the orientation of the board does put me off a little. I'd find it much easier to play up the board than across it and would love the option to switch, but don't expect that kind of thing to happen any time soon (if at all).
I do like the fact that the in-game rules are stringently upheld, but do think that some of the forum rules are a tad draconian. |
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Whitmire
Joined: Dec 08, 2011
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Jul 30, 2012 - 23:26 |
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I've been active for only a few weeks, so I guess I could have some insight that might be considered valuable.
I've seen you trumpet how good a community you have here before, harvestmouse, but it seems to me that you're bumping every comment containing insinuations that the community might not be as welcoming as you think with simply your own opinions.
So far the worst mistake I've done in Fumbbl was to post on this forum in a thread somebody had made about the RNG. This wasn't long ago, so I'm sure you remember. Result: a thread of trolling and a grand display of a deep-set better-than-you attitude - with you actually taking part with your curt and unbased comments. To me that's remarkable if you're one of the key people on this site. I'd definitely try to keep a distance from petty quarrels in a similar position. Having a go with some forum trolls is okay for random players like me, however, and I doubt anybody was hurt too much by that thread, but it did leave an interesting aftertaste.
I've also seen other posts and threads receiving the same kind of treatment. It seems if you don't know something, you're better off just shutting up (and using the search engine!). People and their questions are often mocked and ridiculed with ironic comments, which, I'm sure, are mostly attempts at humour apart from the comments of local forum trolls. Some people get it, other people don't. Remember that the forum is your face. If it appears friendly, people will consider the site friendly. On the other hand, if the forum has many admin-sanctioned trolls, well... At the very least I'd expect admins and the like to keep their personal feelings more properly hidden.
No, I understand why some people may regard this forum as described above. One bad experience does that, and reading the forum does make it appear that you have a you're-great-as-long-as-you've-been-here-long-enough-and-screw-you-if-you-haven't ruleset on the forum.
And yeah, as you said, if you don't show the right attitude, you can always be shown the door... But is something like that a healthy community? Sounds like self-delusion to me. A community that wants to attract people from outside needs to reach outside. An inner circle of people patting themselves on the back, thinking "yeah we're a great community - don't you think, Jack?" may be a great community to those within the circle but may not appear so outside.
Apart from a rude welcome to the forums, the technical side is pleasing. The Fumbbl site seems to be working pretty well, and I really like the piety that has been put into the construction. This is A-level work. The user interface is not the easiest to navigate at first, however. I'll go deeper into that now.
My first experiences: I had some trouble finding "Home" where I can create the teams, despite it being just about the most obvious thing when you know where it is, so maybe a simple Create Team button might be a good idea, because that's what many people probably are looking for when they join up. Also, it is not immediately obvious how to set up a game, and the Play button that takes you to an empty game may lead you astray. Simple and easy-to-use directions on how to start and set up your first game might be in order. Not that it takes long to learn, but the curve should be as low as possible at first - if you want more noobies, that is.
The sprites... I was slightly taken aback by them - and still am to some extent. I have a very "cool" image of what Blood Bowl should look like, and some of the sprites are too humorous and cartoony for me. The team I dislike the most is the Skaven team with their silly-looking cartoon rats. For similar reasons, Slann is a disaster. Lizardmen also look rather boring but so do their tabletop counterparts, and Amazons have immense heads making them look like naked Halflings. Pro elves are just bland, considering that they are the epitome of cool. On the other hand, teams with very good sprites are teams like Dark Elves, Humans and Chaos Pact - very stylish indeed. The Undead are also rather nice, as is Nurgle. Other than that, I think the graphics are serviceable, even attractive to members of the C-64 generation, like me.
Call me silly, but I'd like to have another colour option for my team. My opponent looks so much cooler in blue. Maybe red/blue should alternate between home/away matches, just like in the replays?
The coaches... The ones I've played have mostly been friendly or at least neutral. Nobody's been openly hostile (in game!). There's also at least one really terrific chap. One of the best sports I've ever played, tabletop or computer. I'm sure having a few of those around really helps in creating an approachable image. |
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WhatBall
Joined: Aug 21, 2008
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Jul 30, 2012 - 23:29 |
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Thanks for the input Dode.
So the real question is, what would it take for you to move here full-time and suggest to your entire FOL to do the same? Would a client that was double-sized with revamped icons do it? Would it also need to be rotatable? Is there more?
There are a lot of icons to do, but if there is demand and we can work out some ideas that have been tossed between Kalimar, Christer and myself, I would be willing to redo the icon set to facilitate larger fields. |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Jul 30, 2012 - 23:39 |
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| WhatBall wrote: | Thanks for the input Dode.
So the real question is, what would it take for you to move here full-time and suggest to your entire FOL to do the same? Would a client that was double-sized with revamped icons do it? Would it also need to be rotatable? Is there more?
There are a lot of icons to do, but if there is demand and we can work out some ideas that have been tossed between Kalimar, Christer and myself, I would be willing to redo the icon set to facilitate larger fields. |
Best speak to Christer first, he's created something to adjust icon size. Perfecting this would be quicker than doing a full large size icon set. |
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WhatBall
Joined: Aug 21, 2008
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Jul 30, 2012 - 23:41 |
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| Whitmire wrote: | | The sprites... |
Yes, some of the icons are not great. We're working on it. 30x30 pixels is not a lot to work with.
Pixel for pixel I would take on the Cyanide artists any day. Considering the 3D models and the size of the image maps, they are nothing great. They just have a lot more to work with. |
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WhatBall
Joined: Aug 21, 2008
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Jul 30, 2012 - 23:42 |
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| harvestmouse wrote: | | Best speak to Christer first, he's created something to adjust icon size. Perfecting this would be quicker than doing a full large size icon set. |
I have and I have seen it. I'm talking about something else entirely. I'd rather put time into a new unified set. Some of the old generation icons are showing their age (including my earlier ones). |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Jul 31, 2012 - 00:06 |
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| Quote: | fumbbl graphics are so terrible, i cant deal with it, i feel like im playing space crusade on a 286
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That is just a preference thing. Even if Cyanide worked perfectly and had admins keeping people in line many people would still prefer the simple java interface.
I have seen people asking for a simple 2D interface for Cyanide.
| Quote: | | Ive had a few really nice coaches warn me off fumbbl as they say there are a large number of arrogant @$$holes/whiners. So I'm not likely to switch anytime soon.... I had a look to see what all the fuss was about, but the graphics put me off. Shame ... |
That is the Fumbbl ambiance. If you stick around you get used to it even if you never quite like it.
| zakatan wrote: | | Quote: | | All I want to do is sit down, fire up a game, crack open a beer and throw some dice, but the standard of competition on Fumbbl is a little outside of my comfort zone compared with Cyanide's BB. I play laid back and loose in Cyanide's BB I win some, I lose some... no big ... |
I find this specially amusing: "Not playing there because they are too good". Awesome. |
I don't. I check quite a few records as part of my recruiting. Quite a few people play 5-10 games then quit without even a sniff of success.
Getting destroyed isn't everyone's idea of fun.
I don't think that the new gamefinder helps. It's now a few more clicks to discover that the person challenging you a legend.
I agree. even if I'm as grumpy & sarky as any of 'em. |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Jul 31, 2012 - 00:10 |
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| Quote: | I've been active for only a few weeks, so I guess I could have some insight that might be considered valuable.
I've seen you trumpet how good a community you have here before, harvestmouse, but it seems to me that you're bumping every comment containing insinuations that the community might not be as welcoming as you think with simply your own opinions.
So far the worst mistake I've done in Fumbbl was to post on this forum in a thread somebody had made about the RNG. This wasn't long ago, so I'm sure you remember. Result: a thread of trolling and a grand display of a deep-set better-than-you attitude - with you actually taking part with your curt and unbased comments. To me that's remarkable if you're one of the key people on this site. I'd definitely try to keep a distance from petty quarrels in a similar position. Having a go with some forum trolls is okay for random players like me, however, and I doubt anybody was hurt too much by that thread, but it did leave an interesting aftertaste. |
My point was and is. I have played well over 2000 online bloodbowl games, and I would have no idea whether an RNG was broken or not (which is right). If you wish to make a comment on the RNG, you need to take a large sample to do so.
As I said I've played 2 games that had truly ridiculous dice, both with Wood Elves. 1 was on FUMBBL (the biggest disparity I've seen on here) and 1 on TT. And still that doesn't give me the right to question an RNG without looking at a larger sample. These samples are available, and I have yet to see anyone looking at FUMBBL RNG figures question them.
The fact after half a dozen games or so, you felt you had the right to be critical on an RNG, that a lot of work has gone into, I feel is..........unfair and in fact ridiculous. In reality, watching your replays, you aren't the best coach with best grasp of the game dynamics. Improve that first, play a larger sample, take a larger sample of rolls, then you may have an argument.
How you handled it, is just simply rude.
| Quote: | | And yeah, as you said, if you don't show the right attitude, you can always be shown the door... But is something like that a healthy community? Sounds like self-delusion to me. A community that wants to attract people from outside needs to reach outside. An inner circle of people patting themselves on the back, thinking "yeah we're a great community - don't you think, Jack?" may be a great community to those within the circle but may not appear so outside. |
Well as I said before, this isn't a service like Cyanide. You are here as Christer's guest. If you go into his house and complain about his $100,000 dollar curtains, how do you expect him and his staff to react? Maybe you'll be shown the door. You then trash the site for being unwelcoming, all because you didn't understand the ground rules before entering. You, like the rest of us pay nothing to play here, be grateful for that, and you'll find the community very different to what you have experienced.
| Quote: |
My first experiences: I had some trouble finding "Home" where I can create the teams, despite it being just about the most obvious thing when you know where it is, so maybe a simple Create Team button might be a good idea, because that's what many people probably are looking for when they join up. Also, it is not immediately obvious how to set up a game, and the Play button that takes you to an empty game may lead you astray. Simple and easy-to-use directions on how to start and set up your first game might be in order. Not that it takes long to learn, but the curve should be as low as possible at first - if you want more noobies, that is. |
This is good feedback. 'Homepage' does cause some problems. The create team button is at the bottom of the page, and isn't that intuitive to find. As for instructions on how to do things, they're there if you want to find them. However how many people read the instructions before trying to assemble a cupboard? Even now, I often have trouble finding stuff in the help section, but there is so much there, it's difficult to prioritise or re-do that section. Particularly as most coaches that have problems, don't look in the first place. The fact I lurked for around a year before starting meant I had read everything thoroughly, but I understand when coaches do have problems. I've thought about it, and it's certainly not something I'd want to do, however I think the help section is somewhere FUMBBL could improve.
| Quote: | | The sprites... I was slightly taken aback by them - and still am to some extent. I have a very "cool" image of what Blood Bowl should look like, and some of the sprites are too humorous and cartoony for me. The team I dislike the most is the Skaven team with their silly-looking cartoon rats. For similar reasons, Slann is a disaster. Lizardmen also look rather boring but so do their tabletop counterparts, and Amazons have immense heads making them look like naked Halflings. Pro elves are just bland, considering that they are the epitome of cool. On the other hand, teams with very good sprites are teams like Dark Elves, Humans and Chaos Pact - very stylish indeed. The Undead are also rather nice, as is Nurgle. Other than that, I think the graphics are serviceable, even attractive to members of the C-64 generation, like me. |
Well, if you speak to 10 coaches, they'll all come up with a different list of which icons need improving. Pro Elves are genuinely seen as positive, however a lot of coaches dislike the DE and Humans. Slann, do need redoing. These were for the BOTOCS client, and there are several problems with them. A few of us have looked at them, and I believe Zakatan is going to finish snakesanders work on a different base icon.
| Quote: | | Call me silly, but I'd like to have another colour option for my team. My opponent looks so much cooler in blue. Maybe red/blue should alternate between home/away matches, just like in the replays? |
Customisation of icons and pitches, is one of the things, I'd really like to see added. I believe it would spur the community on to create some great stuff. These additions, would possibly the most positive changes to increase the size of our community. As for changing between blue and red for the general client, I don't think this would be a good idea, as it would generally confuse. |
Last edited by harvestmouse on %b %31, %2012 - %00:%Jul; edited 1 time in total |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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| Posted:
Jul 31, 2012 - 00:21 |
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Anyone wishes to fix my above post, to make it easier reading, feel free. I tried and failed, stupid FUMBBL, with it's rubbish interface. |
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