Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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 Posted:
Sep 08, 2011 - 09:55 |
 
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| ZeZe wrote: | | In LRB4 we all got especially frustrated, when we rolled a Double on the Aging Roll and got a Niggling or a Stat-Down on a special Player; now we get especially frustrated with a failing Apo. Just changed it to a different situation. I also think the apo has to be a good deal of a risk in LRB6 because with aging gone, we need an institution that kills players, it was called apo lately! |
you can't compare aging with the apo really. The problem with aging was mainly that it was punishing success and therefore was a dynamic that encouraged coaches not to skill their players. That's counterintuitive and therefore frustrating.
And besides all the whining the apo is still very effective. Just not OP. Personally I think the weakening on the apo was mainly a good idea because the regen teams could need a boost. The overall balance has greatly improved thanks to that.
With the journeymen the low av fall below 11 players side is coverd, while maintaining the necessary cas. Overall you can say what you will. The CRP ruleset was just a huge improvement. |
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the_Sage
Joined: Jan 13, 2011
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Sep 08, 2011 - 10:28 |
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Fluff-wise, I love the idea of an apo that can kill. However, I also think you should be better off.
Treating the cas results as a continuous counter (which it is), I would propose that you reroll with a bonus (+4 would be my first suggestion), but that you must keep the new result. That way the chance of actually killing will be smaller, but people will think twice before APOing non-crippling injuries.
You could do this with BH = auto-recover and/or MNG = auto-BH or whatever.
I love KenThis' suggestion about treating injuries after a game.
Another possible change (but completely unrelated), might be to make it impossible for an apo to affect the game (by making him affect only CAS', and having the player remain in the CAS box). That way, you can set the apothecary's TV to 0. |
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Overhamsteren
Joined: May 27, 2006
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Sep 08, 2011 - 14:58 |
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I like the apo rules. Sometimes I don't want to use him, sometimes I instantly click, sometimes I am in doubt. Sometimes he works, sometimes he don't.
Although always getting an alternative result could be an ok league option.
Would be interesting if apo on KO left the player just prone instead of stunned. |
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Last edited by Overhamsteren on %b %08, %2011 - %15:%Sep; edited 1 time in total |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Sep 08, 2011 - 15:22 |
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What I dont understand is that the odds to save a player who was killed: with a LRB6 apoth it is the same as the LRB4 Apoth...only a 1 in 6 chance of failure. Now of course the LRB6 apoth has a 1 in 6 of also rerolling into a neg stat SI.
So is the real issue that the apoth is rerolling into nega stats? because the odds of rerolling into death is the exact same odds as the LRB4 apoth. failing his roll? |
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Colin
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Sep 08, 2011 - 15:29 |
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I finally twigged that the apothecary was not for use quite as he had been in LRB4 in this blog post.
It means player turnover is that bit higher, but provides an in-game advantage. About the only teams an apo may not still be worth taking is in stunty teams, where it's cheaper to just have an extra player. |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Sep 08, 2011 - 15:55 |
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I agree with Colin that the new apoth has some nice tactical advantages but then again so did the LRB4 apoth. If you apothed every BH in LRB4 he would still be on the pitch, stunned, although now surrounded by 6 guys who lay the DP boot, Ok maybe it is better to be put in the reserve box until the match settles down.
I still think saving the apoth is worth the TV weight even if you never use him by protecting only your core players on your team. Take a skaven team for example, is there even a reason to apoth any player But your gutters and two storm vermin? everything else is cannon fodder...so in essence you are only guarding 6 players with your apoth. AND then you only use it on Kill, SI-AG for the Gutters and SI -ST on the Vermin...so the chances for you apoth to work are very HIGH as a % if you are willing to accept some SI perms and dont mind "churning" over the chumps on the roster.
With the removal of ageing it is now possible to get players to the 76+ SPP range with no perm damage. At that point you have 5 skill up rolls and the chance to make some really nice players....taking them to legend is up to you. But the big picture is now you can get a few players to that 76+ level and have the chance to make some very interesting players, worthy of hanging on to and taking to legend.
Removal of Ageing made it possible now to have multiple players at the 76+ level. The new apoth is just annoying as hell but is in no way as effective as the old ageing system.
Bottom line: I like the new apoth from a fluff and game mechanic stand point...my only problem with the new apoth is I see coaches who have apothed a SI -ST rerolled into a KIA and kept the SI and then lament in chat that they will retire the guy after the match...if you know 100% your SI will force his retirement and you roll a kill....accept the KILL result and have fun with it. |
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polardragon
Joined: May 07, 2011
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Sep 08, 2011 - 16:09 |
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+1 PainState |
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the_Sage
Joined: Jan 13, 2011
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Sep 08, 2011 - 17:37 |
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What I like about Kalimar's suggestion (as well as my own), is that there is a risk to using the apo. That is, your star rolls a -AV (after which you would normally keep him) and you want to apo him, but you know that there is a small risk the apo will break his neck. This risk needs to be smaller than normal, which is why a modifier to the reroll would be a good idea. We could also combine the two, so that the rolled casualty is excluded, and the odds are tweaked. |
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warpstone
Joined: Jul 04, 2006
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Sep 08, 2011 - 17:51 |
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Think through how a reliable "get out of death" card would drastically alter long-term play. Boosting Apo effectiveness makes it even harder to get high-flying teams to regress to the mean. It does no good for a league or competition for you to try so hard to finally kill that annoying ST++ player only for his coach to get an automatic save vs death.
Yah, it sucks when your player dies and the Apo whiffs on his roll. But this is for the greater good compared to conferring elite players nigh invulnerability with a better apo. |
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Catalyst32
Joined: Jul 14, 2008
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Sep 08, 2011 - 19:30 |
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| pythrr wrote: | | if we bring back the old apo, gotta bring back aging too, imho |
I agree.
The CRP Apoth stinks... but it is much better than Ageing Rules.
I would like the option to be able to FIRE and later HIRE the Apoth and to name him on the roster. It would also be cool if the Apoth's STATS were tabulated somehow... so you would know whether or not you should fire that guy.
I think the Fluff that he might KIll your player is great too.
Is you Apoth Incompetent? Is he a Mercy Killer? Is he a Psychopath?
Does he kill your star Blitzer for fooling around with the Apoth's Wife?
Was your player just so badly injured that no matter how good you Apoth is he just couldn't save him?
Was your player not just injured but also 900 years old and was going to die anyway? |
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Catalyst32
Joined: Jul 14, 2008
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Sep 08, 2011 - 20:01 |
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I would rather see a NEW Inducement added to the game.
Magic Sponge (boring this from a previous edition or expansion)
Magic Sponge automatically reduces the damage caused to a player 1 degree.
So it moves Killed to SI, SI to BH, BH to KO, KO to Stunned or something like that.
I'll look it up to see what the Old Rules on Magic Sponge actually were and get back to this thread.
EDIT: Nevermind. I found the old rules and it only works on Stuns and KO's. I guess it could still be cool to have available. But it Bloodweiser Babes for 50K do basically the same thing. |
Last edited by Catalyst32 on %b %08, %2011 - %20:%Sep; edited 1 time in total |
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Grim04
Joined: Oct 30, 2005
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Sep 08, 2011 - 20:03 |
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Ooo... Apo skills.
It starts off terrible but gets 1 SPP per different injury and eventually could level up. |
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Hitonagashi
Joined: Apr 09, 2006
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Sep 08, 2011 - 20:05 |
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| Catalyst32 wrote: | I would rather see a NEW Inducement added to the game.
Magic Sponge (boring this from a previous edition or expansion)
Magic Sponge automatically reduces the damage caused to a player 1 degree.
So it moves Killed to SI, SI to BH, BH to KO, KO to Stunned or something like that.
I'll look it up to see what the Old Rules on Magic Sponge actually were and get back to this thread. |
That's still a special card isn't it? We just don't have special cards on FUMBBL... |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Sep 08, 2011 - 20:07 |
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| Catalyst32 wrote: | | The CRP Apoth stinks... but it is much better than Ageing Rules. |
I will go back to my first post on this subject...So it basically is the SI Stat loss that we are moaning about.
both apoths have a 1 in 6 chance to fail when it comes to a KILL result.
The Big Diffrence is now the apoth has the additional problem of a 1 in 6 to reroll you a stat loss.
Thus if failure is judged by rolling a KILL or ANY SI - STAT then the fail rate is 1/3.
The Biggest "grief" it seems is when your pixels lets say get a SI -AG....well apothing a STAT increases your odds of failure. They been reduced to 1 in 3 now. You can reroll another STAT loss or roll into a kill.
So with all that being said it now seems that if you are looking for the best odds of apoth success you only use it on BH, KO or KILL and accept any SI injury that comes down the pike, that is the new ageing. Of course you can send out the apoth on a SI knowing full well that the odds of success have been reduced by a full 1 in 6 to 1 in 3. It is a calculated gamble.
So dont apoth SI injuries and only apoth BH and KO which do not fail or only APoth the kill shot and accept anything but a KILL.
Of course bringing back ageing is currently "polling" at around 15% of the FUMBBL community as a old LRB4 mechanic they are "pining" to bring back. So it looks like we are stuck with the new ageing mechanic...called the LRB6 saw bones. |
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Last edited by PainState on %b %09, %2011 - %15:%Sep; edited 1 time in total |
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Catalyst32
Joined: Jul 14, 2008
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Sep 08, 2011 - 20:16 |
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Found this in the Blood Bowl Companion page 49 under Apothecaries.
The Apothecaries Oath
"I do swear, in the name of my deity, my liege and my employer, that I shall uphold the sacred duties of my vocation and my profession. I shall never send a player out into the arena who is sick in mind or spirit, unless he hasn't paid his bill or has threatened me personally with grievous bodily harm. Nor shall I tamper with the natural workings of the humanoid body, except for a little chemical fine-tuning. And I shall adhere at all times to the ethics of my profession, such as they are. I swear all of this and, herewith, my expensively retained lawyer does so bear witness of this fact." |
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