Megrim
Joined: Apr 24, 2011
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Feb 14, 2013 - 04:46 |
 
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Nelphine, I think that you are mostly correct, but there are a few assumptions that you are making, that could be looked at.
The logical flow of what you are saying makes sense, but you have to remember that there are a lot of variables that depend heavily on player skill/league set-up/ and a whole bunch of other fairly intangible things, that are usually downplayed or emphasised depending on who is trying to make what argument.
The first is the initial premise that AV8 is key to winning. There isn't (in my experience) a clear-cut answer to this. I've had AV8 teams that have taken more injuries than my stunty teams, and I've had experience with low-armour teams that have annihilated higher armour opponents. So the answer, in my mind, is "it depends".
The reason I crudely labelled it as "box mentality" is that typically this kind of min/max approach is a derivative of TV-based match making. Player retention over time matters, consequently skill memory dictates player "usefulness", ergo the ability to lower team value while maximising skill retention becomes a dependent on the AV rating.
In so far as asking who the better ball carrier is, I think, the initial question was over the difference between a lino and a runner. In your summation, you seem to be comparing the DE blitzer with the runner (this I assume is because they are both MV7). Here I have no argument. The DE blitzer in my mind is one of the best pieces in the game, and the second best elf piece, after the wardancer.
But, if we remember that the original confusion was over the swapping of a lino out for a runner, the picture changes - and this is what I've been trying to get across. One of the reasons I think a runner is worth it as a ball carrier, which I didn't make clear, is that it frees up your four easy Blodge blitzers to do other things, while still holding the ball on an MV7 piece. The witch is used for pitch control, the blitzers zone space and mark dangerous players, the lino plug the gaps and do whatever else you need to them to do. This leaves a nice bit of space on the team for a player that can score as easily as a blitzer (after one skill, Dodge first), while also giving one the ability to control the ball.
Now, I know that you are taking into account, in your argument, that in a short league the coach also has to consider who is going to score, and this obviously (as you point out) makes the blitzer a superiour choice. And this is entirely correct - but think back to what I said initially. We don't know all the variables. We do know that its a short league, but do we also know that there won't be a second or third season for this team? So drawing ironclad conclusions in this case, to my way of thinking, is short-sighted.
I apologise if I missed anything. |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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Feb 14, 2013 - 05:24 |
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| Megrim wrote: | So after all the posturing, you are down to questioning my ability? Really? This is coming from a guy who purports to give advice on how to play DE, yet doesn't know how much a runner costs.
I've already written what I wanted to say about the runner, so I think I'll leave it to the prospective DE player to decide for themselves. If we've moved onto the 'fallacious arguments' stage of of the discussion, I think I'll leave it there.
Thank you for explaining your point of view. |
Do you read what people actually write or just pretend they said something you want to hear?
I asked you to provide some evidence for your claims since I cannot find any here on fumbbl which would back them up. If you play Cyanide or TT or whatever then great. I have to assume you do, but it's an assumption, hence, why I asked the questions I asked.
Essentially you have an argument with no evidence to support it. Those who say to eschew the runner, do have evidence supporting their claims.
Further, if you are taking the runner for DO, which you were advocating, rather than MA7, which was a side benefit from your posts, then you are just ignoring the raw numbers which show that DO fails a lot unless you back it with other skills to assist passing, which, again, lead to largely useless TV.
You can ignore the min/maxing aspects if you choose, but sadly, in CRP, they do actually matter. As does believing that an AV7 player is never going to be targeted unless he's holding the ball.
Further, thinking that you shouldn't use a blitzer as your ball carrier is just strange. Thinking that you can't use a line elf either is also strange.
I have to wonder if you really have played a lot of DE, or played against it. You haven't answered that question. Until you do, I will assume you have not, because your thoughts on how using a runner should work simply do not jive with how using a runner actually works in practice.
I mean marking players with your blitzers? No. That's a poor strategy in general. Marking players in general (clearly dependent on the matchup) as any elfs (or other AV7 heavy teams) is a poor strategy, but if you're going to mark someone, you do it with a throw away lino, and then, AV8 matters much more than MA7.
So tell us, how much do you play DE? How much have you played against them? You can look at my record here on fumbbl if you care to, I don't claim to be a superior DE coach, but I've seen them enough to know what works and what doesn't.
Again, if your competition is weak then almost anything will work assuming you are competent. Runners are not bad players on their own merits, but they are not necessary players for a DE team, and likely make the team perform worse than without them.
The only criticism I have of Nelphines contribution is that simply having AV7 on the pitch makes it a target, and makes it likely that you will be down an additional player at some point. Unless you carry a big enough bench to not play the runner on defense at all (though some one was saying that the runner is best on defense, though that really didn't make much sense either).
AV7 is a target for many teams who just want to get the numbers tilted. Sure, it's great to take out the most dangerous player, but that's not always the best play (nor the play with the most likely success), so, target the weak, take them out, and the strong have no one to keep them from getting blasted.
Pretty standard strategy for a lot of teams who have player removal skills. Now, if you are talking just about elf on elf action, the math is different.
But anyone who has S access somewhere is going to make a MB, or a POMB at some point. And the smart coach is going to take their opportunities to just take out the AV7 when it presents itself. Stopping elfs from scoring in the 1st half only matters if they are able to stall. Else? We all know how the 2-1 grind goes. And part of the 2-1 grind is just shifting the numbers so that the 2nd half 8 turn score involves continuing to take out the opponent. The fewer players they have to defend that the better. |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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Feb 14, 2013 - 06:02 |
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@Melgrim:
I am comparing a runner to a blitzer for ball carrying because the OP is asking: Do I take a runner, or another linemen. If you take a runner, he becomes your ball carrier. If you take an extra linemen, then you can make the blitzer your carrier, and the linemen becomes the player used for space control elsewhere. I assume in both cases that the best player for ball carrying is used for ball carrying.
As for the possibility of using the runner to free up a blitzer, I think in a beginning roster you can't have both. (I could be wrong.) But even still, I operate under the CRP rule of '5 good players'. In this case, 4 blitzers + witch, or 3 blitzers + runner + witch. (I think those are the main options being looked at.) So, by taking the runner, you are actually giving up a blitzer, not freeing up a blitzer. If another option is 4 blitzers + runner, I would argue that (for the same reason I outlined above for SPP gain) the 4 blitzer + witch is certainly better.
@Licker:
I ignore the AV 7 on defense because in most short leagues very few teams will be able to make a team capable of relying on pitch clearing as a strategy. This means, that under the CRP 5 positional strategy I go by, you would defend your 5 positional dark elves, and therefore do your utmost to limit block against them regardless of AV, which is better protection than any AV. Obviously they will still get hit. But snotlings can still kill treemen too, so to me, that uncommon occurence (of your positionals getting blocked, and thereby having AV matter when not the ball carrier) is of lesser importance than the opportunity cost of not skilling your blitzers. And in fact, of enough lesser importance, that I don't think it should be used as a main argument, except in a truly bashy boxlike environment (in which case claw makes the whole argument moot anyway.) However, I fully agree to disagree on that point. I was just trying to point out that I agree overall with your argument, but don't believe that particular part of your argument makes enough difference to matter. |
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Megrim
Joined: Apr 24, 2011
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Feb 14, 2013 - 06:16 |
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Nelphine, the most common starting roster for DE is:
6x lino
4x blitzer
1x runner
2x rr |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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Feb 14, 2013 - 06:17 |
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oh so we're looking at that or 7 linos+4 blitzers huh. All right, I see where the difficulty comes in. I'd still go with 7 linos+4 blitzers. |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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Feb 14, 2013 - 07:18 |
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| Megrim wrote: | Nelphine, the most common starting roster for DE is:
6x lino
4x blitzer
1x runner
2x rr |
It is? Where do you see that it is the most common staring roster?
But beyond being the most common (even if it is), is it actually the best?
Again, why do you insist on using the runner as the ball carrier? MA7 vs MA6 on a line elf is not that huge, and by the time you're ready to score you should be giving it to a blitzer anyway. Skilling up the runner really doesn't do you much good. Even if you give him blodge, you still won't use him as a marker, you'll still need to protect him on defense.
That's what I don't think you appreciate. A common (and effective) strategy is to just keep on hitting the AV7s until they go off. More players is better, no matter which ones you are sending out.
Ask lizard players about this. Granted, skinks are a different animal (hehe) completely, but the basic premise is just take out the weak links, and the strong won't have the room to do anything anyway.
I guess, taking a runner means your blitzers won't get blitzed as much at least 
At low TV where you are not facing teams which can get in your back field that easily you can elf stall with just about any combination. Lineman hangs back, waits, then makes an easy pass/hand off to the next guy who makes an easy handoff/pass...
Or if you just want to make cage/screen and advance the ball you don't need another MA7 to make that work.
Too much AV7 is a problem in any situation. There has to be a really tangible benefit to taking more of it than you have to. HE catchers are MA8, that's huge because they can run away from just about anything. MA7... well you risk the MA6 catching you with a gfi or two, or you take the gfi yourself. |
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SvenS
Joined: Jul 07, 2007
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Feb 14, 2013 - 07:30 |
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Well to be fair he was talking about 1 (eventually 2 with witch) av7s not heaps of them.
The main draw for a runner is his speed as a carrier no doubt, not DO.
+1mv on the carrier matters way more then you seem to give it credit Licker.
I'd likely go for 3 blitzers + witch myself though. |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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Feb 14, 2013 - 07:52 |
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Though you have plenty of MA7 carriers already.
Why waste a spot with the runner? |
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Elyoukey
Joined: Nov 30, 2006
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Feb 14, 2013 - 08:10 |
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To add to licker, i think in a starting DE team, a witch elf ball carrier is better because she get the dodge skill, wich allow here to find easier way, and to avoid some hit without burning the precious 2 rerolls. 2 benefit :
1-easier ball mouvement => TD => game winning
2-she can quickly get to 6 spp to have block/wrestle and change here role in the team to become the main blitzer |
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Peter22
Joined: Mar 07, 2012
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Feb 14, 2013 - 14:12 |
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I recently started playing a DE team in a tabletop league, starting with 4 blitzers, 1 runner, 6 linos and 2 rr (a starting roster which is recommended in different places like bbtactics and also here in the fumbbl help section). My runner got his first skill which is leader to get the 3rd reroll. After some good matches and a very bad match (where I lost 4 players, but NOT the runner) I´m considering sacking the runner once I have enough cash to buy a 3rd reroll, a replacement line elf and still have the money to quickly replace any dead key player (which sums up to 260.000 gold...). Hope fully I´ll be able to save that much money without having to replace dead players before... |
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C3I2
Joined: Feb 08, 2005
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Feb 14, 2013 - 14:30 |
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Assume you can buy a Runner, or a Lino, further assume that you sooner or later will roll 10. You can then pick Mv on the lino and Av on the Runner; this leads to the Runner having one extra skill and pass access for 10 tv. Is it worth it?
If you always pick Mv over Av, then one runner is probably worth it for you even before this comparison.
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The reason, to buy them early is to skill them up to survivability in an easier enviroment. So, its down to team developement.
(Edited to switch Mv Av, to clarify, I figured you all got it despite the original error but still) |
Last edited by C3I2 on %b %15, %2013 - %17:%Feb; edited 1 time in total |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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Feb 14, 2013 - 16:06 |
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| C3I2 wrote: | Assume you can buy a Runner, or a Lino, further assume that you sooner or later will roll 10. You can then pick Av on the lino and Mv on the Runner; this leads to the Runner having one extra skill and pass access for 10 tv. Is it worth it?
If you always pick Mv over Av, then one runner is probably worth it for you even before this comparison.
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The reason, to buy them early is to skill them up to survivability in an easier enviroment. So, its down to team developement. |
Why would anyone ever pick AV
Also, if it's a double, then skipping the MA is still a strong option, since DE are starved for as much guard (and or MB) as they can get.
Buying them at all means fewer spp for the players who will do the heavy lifting (blitzers and Witch). Taking purely ball carrying skills is usually a mistake in early development, and elfs, even DE, generally do not have real difficulty in scoring anyway. Just that DE are usually better at stalling than their other elf cousins, so they may not have to score that quickly. But 2 turn scores with AG4 and 5 MA7 players should not be that difficult to set up. To execute... well then it depends on the defense and the dice.
Sure, some of it depends on coaching philosophies, if you want to play DE as a quick scoring team you're better off taking any other elf team. If you want to play them with a bit more bash, then you need to build a hitter or two, and try to design situations where you can use the frenzy to generate surfs. The skills you desire for that style do not require you to have a blodge/DO ball carrier who you are afraid to stick in a mess because you can't afford extra blocks on your AV7.
Which is the thing. What do you do with your runner on defense? Keep him back as the safety? Sure, but then what? Give him block and he can maybe do something. No tackle? No MB? No guard? Yet he's a player you are afraid to loose.
High TV deep roster DE can run with one. High TV teams can run with any form of specialized players, and high TV the TV differences are mitigated because of all the skills you already have on your team.
Low to mid TV, well it does matter (sad fact of CRP). Giving your opponent 2 babes is huge many times, especially for teams which lack player removal skills, so KOs are the most likely CAS result.
I'm not going to tell you that runners are bad players in and of themselves. I'm going to tell you that they are unnecessary players, and that they, like assassins, are very niche in what they do, because if you use them as just another line elf, well, that's kind of silly. |
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polardragon
Joined: May 07, 2011
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Feb 14, 2013 - 23:34 |
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I am far from the most experienced DE coach. This is my only ranked team.
https://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=view&team_id=694382
My thinking on the first runner was to have a mv7 player to retrieve the ball and free up the witch and blitzers for screening and bashing while they get range to score.
I don't recall why i picked up the second runner. Probably with a notion to have a pair of dump-off players playing keep away.
This thread has me considering sacking the second runner and developing another blodge line-elf in his place. |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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Feb 15, 2013 - 00:53 |
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13 completions in 19 games, out of curiosity how many of those were from DO?
estimates accepted |
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Reisender
Joined: Sep 29, 2007
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Feb 15, 2013 - 02:31 |
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| C3I2 wrote: | Assume you can buy a Runner, or a Lino, further assume that you sooner or later will roll 10. You can then pick Av on the lino and Mv on the Runner; this leads to the Runner having one extra skill and pass access for 10 tv. Is it worth it?
If you always pick Mv over Av, then one runner is probably worth it for you even before this comparison.
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true.
+ma isnt for darkie linos, though, imo. their job is to protect the real positionals when they do things and provide assisits (ofcourse they can ballhandle which is great in specific situation). They need to blodge up and hopefully get guard, thats it |
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