Fingard
Joined: Oct 07, 2008
|
 Posted:
Apr 30, 2015 - 11:17 |
 
|
In ranked you can skip the thrower:
- You don't NEED leader since TV doesn't matter that much
- You don't NEED sure hands since you will just avoid SB leapers, and because you can have 3 or even 4 rerolls (again, TV dosn't matter)
- You don't WANT pass because... Well... It's pass...
In blackbox I think the thrower is a must; leader -> block -> death or fire or kick if you still don't have it (but you should) |
|
|
Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
|
| Posted:
Apr 30, 2015 - 12:45 |
|
| bghandras wrote: | @Wreckage
The intro you cut here is OK-ish at beginner level. But in case you aim is to do a major-ready-guide, then it is not good enough. |
As I explained in the other thread, it wasn't really about ranked majors. It was always about team development independend of environment.
Within the debate I just felt that the ranked majors are a good starting point.
This is only one section of the guide discussing ball handlers. I do firmly believe that they do need to be very strong to remotely stand a chance in majors.
The approach I am trying is to establish an amount of key positions that make sense to develop, regardless of what race you play. The purpose is to give a coach an outlook on where to go with his team, towards what end to develop it to. Then he can look at his race and say: Ok, this makes sense, I can do this. Or.. this doesn't make sense, I can't build this.
Once there is something like a baseline on how to develop a team, questions like environment can be discussed in greater detail. There is only so and so much content I want to squeeze in this guide and I think my understanding of what makes a good ballhandler is established there.
If you disagree on what makes a good carrier feel free to release a competing view and I'll print that aswell in quotations.
It is probably also easier if I quote you more (only one more person for the reader) rather than quoting various random people.
What you should do is essentially look at the skills:
Ma7, Block, Dodge, Sure Hands, Ag4, (Two Heads), Sidestep
Then ask youself: What player type do I have that could fit these skills? You choose the one that is closest and then you develop a player in accordance and order of the skill list with regard to the remarks made in the text that describe the player type in finer detail.
I feel like this approach is remarkably accurate.
EDIT: Also feel free to check out my old version and see if there are any topics you want to discuss that aren't in there and I'll add them as guest contributions to the guide.
Also once I am done with the team development section I'll gladly send it to you in private for you to review and comment. |
|
|
bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
|
| Posted:
Apr 30, 2015 - 13:21 |
|
Ok, fair enough. Lets do that way. Your ball handler is fine, and balanced. On the other hand there might be another one, which on has str 4 or 5, and then lower movement and or agility is also acceptable. I would say that 2 out of the 3 stats should be superb for a ball carrier among Strength, Movement, and Agility. Bull centaurs may become extremely efficient ball carriers in spite not matching your niche. And for the Break tackle is kind of a replacement for 2heads. If 2heads are mentioned, then...
One way to formulate is to lend the verbiage from american football. There are different type of running backs, and also there is a fullback. The latter is slow, but strong and reliable. I would concentrate on the block and sure hand skills as essential, and the dodge enablers as player dependent. Strong ones need Break tackle, agile ones need dodge, and there is a the 2 head for some exceptional cases.
P.S.
I will gladly review the final to be version. |
_________________
 |
|
Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
|
| Posted:
Apr 30, 2015 - 13:23 |
|
| bghandras wrote: | | Your ball handler is fine, and balanced. On the other hand there might be another one, which on has str 4 or 5, and then lower movement and or agility is also acceptable. |
I was getting to that.. I was just in the middle of things when I stumbled over the skaven question... |
|
|
licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
|
| Posted:
Apr 30, 2015 - 16:10 |
|
Well the guide is fine for what it is, as bghandras said it appears a bit on the rookie advice side.
The problem I think you may be having is that you feel every team needs to have certain boxes checked for certain builds. I don't think that's the case at all.
Skaven, for example, do not have a 'ball carrier'. They have gutters who can do that job almost no matter the stats, because their drives don't play out the way most other teams drives play out. They will rarely have a lot of guard, so caging is always a risky proposition, they are better off with screens and keeping the ball out of blitz range, or making that blitz very difficult, or even allowing a blitz now and then, but not allowing any 'follow up', so even if the ball does come out, they should be able to recover it again easily.
Then they can nearly always score on any turn, so having assets who let you get the ball moved across the pitch (N/S or E/W) are important, but again, they don't really need to specially develop anyone to do this, gutters do it all naturally.
So to does the thrower, other than that he's not the scoring threat (usually), he's the mobile ball retriever/passer. The only skill you may really want on him is actually dodge, otherwise you just take basic skills which don't waste TV (or help with TV in the case of Leader) and use him on offense only if you have the bench, or whatever makes sense.
Really your argument is that you'd rather have a line rat than a thrower.
That's a difference of 20k. Defend that, or just recognize that a thrower is a solid investment for a skaven team, almost regardless of how you use him. |
|
|
the_Sage
Joined: Jan 13, 2011
|
| Posted:
Apr 30, 2015 - 16:22 |
|
Yeah, ST3 is good against getting sacked. And passing is good as a fallback plan, to spread out a high ST defensive line, or to make that OTTD. I think passing as a plan A isn't all that effective, but having reliable passing as a plan B is really useful.
Just as importantly: the opportunity cost of wasting a gutter on carrying duty is enough reason for me to appreciate the skaven thrower (though without +AG they do carry risks).
I want a wrestle tackle leap strip gutter
I want a +MA sure feet sprint sidestep leap catch (ok, maybe block) gutter
I want a block sidestep diving tackle (guard) gutter
I tend to have at least 1 gutter in development. I suppose if I had an AG5 leap sure hands gutter and a statless thrower, I might consider firing the thrower. |
|
|
Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
|
| Posted:
Apr 30, 2015 - 16:31 |
|
Wreck,
You aren't going to get a consistent opinion on Skaven throwers, or the Rat Ogre for that matter. There are situations where the skaven thrower is superior to the gutter runner at playing "point guard", most significantly if a TRR is not available. I also had a very inventive opponent use a big handed thrower to pick up the ball in 4 tacklezones and hand off to an adjacent runner. So no, they aren't useless, but...
My personal opinion on both the Rat Ogre and thrower is that they are much better on rookie teams than on developed ones. I think you do start a Skaven team with a thrower, but it's debatable if you continue to buy them once the first one is dead. 20tv may not sound like a lot, but the thrower on skaven teams tends to be a blitz target, as it is often the most expensive player without block or dodge on the pitch. This, combined with AV7 means that you can often be replacing that thrower quite often.
That extra 20 gold adds up over time, and a team like rats needs every penny. It is for this reason, not the extra TV cost to the team that I do not use one for leader. |
|
|
Leilond
Joined: Jan 02, 2012
|
| Posted:
Apr 30, 2015 - 16:37 |
|
Having a Thrower means that after the ball is recovered and screened, you have FOUR gutter runners instead of Three ready to run in any direction after a simple hand-off. When you have the 2 turn to score situation, you can send two of them deep in opponent side of the pitch and still have another two to recive the hand-off from the thrower, run deep after the gutters and eventually pass directly into the end-zone, to the just freed gutter (7MA thrower, +9MA Gutter +3 square pass, you can move the ball 19 square without GFI, and save TWO gutters for the "score" AND two gutters for the "bring the ball to the scorer"). Only for this reason I appreciate the Thrower. I would appreciate it if he had only sure hands too. The "pass" skill is a "plus" that can be used in desperate situation, expecially during one turn attempts, where you have to roll tons of dices and a reroll saved by pass skill is a good thing
And about money. If you have less than 200k and your team is 1500+TV, you do not buy a thrower when it die. That's simple... always keep enought money to replace a couple of positional (Blitzers/Gutters).
Thus, when you have the money, you buy it, otherwise you keep a journeyrat |
|
|
PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
|
| Posted:
Apr 30, 2015 - 16:40 |
|
Here is why it is a good think to have atleast one thrower. You give him KoR and Accurate. Then you know he will have the most likely chance to get to any ball on a kick off and be able to pass it to a gutter in the middle of the backfield who can then hand it off to the real gutter waiting to score.
Also remember one of the things Gutters do not have is catch.
So one gutter with catch, he stands in the middle of the backfield.
One thrower with KoR and accurate, he has pass and surehands.
So now you know with 100% certainty that you can get to the ball on a kick off, pick up, pass and catch all with free rerolls.
That is a big advantage when you need it. And that scenario I laid out up top is very common for Skaven. |
_________________
Comish of the:  |
|
Leilond
Joined: Jan 02, 2012
|
| Posted:
Apr 30, 2015 - 16:44 |
|
Personally I never took and probably never seen Catch skill on a Gutter runner
Except pheraps a +MA that have yet +MA/Block/Sprint/Sure Feet/Leap, as legend skill (but I would probably go for fend to be honest, to defend him the rare occasion he's on the pitch during defence) |
|
|
PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
|
| Posted:
Apr 30, 2015 - 16:47 |
|
| Rat_Salat wrote: | W but the thrower on skaven teams tends to be a blitz target, as it is often the most expensive player without block or dodge on the pitch. This, combined with AV7 means that you can often be replacing that thrower quite often.
|
That is even more win/win.
Field 2 of them and since they are blitz magnets let your foe waste his blitz every turn hitting throwers instead of Gutters and Storm vermin.
Protects your best players the gutter and vermin and since the thrower is so cheap, you do not care if gets killed.
That is why, IMO, it is a good thing to keep one -ST lino running around. He never gets locked up, that is the plan atleast, but is a good magnet to draw out a blitz on him instead of your core players.
If my foe dedicated 6 of his 16 blitzes in a match against my throwers or my gimped ST2 lino, I think that gives you a nice tactical edge during the match. |
_________________
Comish of the: |
|
PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
|
| Posted:
Apr 30, 2015 - 16:50 |
|
| Leilond wrote: | Personally I never took and probably never seen Catch skill on a Gutter runner
Except pheraps a +MA that have yet +MA/Block/Sprint/Sure Feet/Leap, as legend skill (but I would probably go for fend to be honest, to defend him the rare occasion he's on the pitch during defence) |
Iam a huge fan of free rerolls, especially for players like Gutters. They are constantly catching and pressing the GFI button. Catch and SureFeet are gold on them and saves a ton of rerolls.
I have speced so many majors were the skaven teams are sunk because they do not take catch on their gutters and they blow it at the most critical point in the match. |
_________________
Comish of the: |
|
Leilond
Joined: Jan 02, 2012
|
| Posted:
Apr 30, 2015 - 16:55 |
|
Pheraps... but I never seen catch on a skaven runner, nor from rookie coaches, nor from famous legend skaven coaches... and I'm looking to all the good coaches replay I can find to learn how to play them properly
Catch is exactly a skill that "if only there wasn't this other skill a little bit more usefull".
You NEVER know where a Gutter will be an when, nor which of your gutter will recive the ball. You change side and profondity so many times during 3-4 turns that the "intended" reciver is out of TD range and another is in...
Side step, leap, dauntless, tackle, strip ball... even fend or diving tackle... there are so many skills that are usefull 5 times (some even 10-15) per match I cannot consider to take a skill that there the chance I will use pheraps once or twice |
|
|
PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
|
| Posted:
Apr 30, 2015 - 17:00 |
|
| Leilond wrote: | You NEVER know where a Gutter will be an when, nor which of your gutter will recive the ball. You change side and profondity so many times during 3-4 turns that the "intended" reciver is out of TD range and another is in...
Side step, leap, dauntless, tackle, strip ball... even fend or diving tackle... there are so many skills that are usefull 5 times (some even 10-15) per match I cannot consider to take a skill that there the chance I will use pheraps once or twice |
Oh my, if you are using SS,L,D,T,SB 10 times a match, then, sir, that is the luckiest Gutter of all time. He should of been knocked over and stomped on so many times in his life that he is lucky to even be alive.
You might use that particular gutter once or twice during a match, that gutter is in protection mode the other 14 turns most of the time.
Overlooking catch and SureFeet are a mistake IMO, because at the end of matches and the RR are running dry or out, you have built in rerolls to perform critical actions at the end of matches or OT. |
_________________
Comish of the: |
|
PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
|
| Posted:
Apr 30, 2015 - 17:03 |
|
Just off the top of my head I know that Azure on his skaven teams does take catch, surehands and surefeet on his Gutters, depending on their role on the team.
I think you could say he is above average with Skaven. |
_________________
Comish of the: |
|
|
|
| |
Elfball... where are...
Search
