| Poll |
| Are the lizzies at an disadvantage due to the ST-rating? |
| Yes, they are rated higher than their actual strenght. |
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38% |
[ 63 ] |
| No, they are rated at they actual strenght. |
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20% |
[ 33 ] |
| No, they are rated lower than their actual strenght. |
|
6% |
[ 10 ] |
| Only nerds or noobs care about team-strenght. |
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34% |
[ 57 ] |
| Other. (Please state below) |
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1% |
[ 2 ] |
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| Total Votes : 165 |
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Moxy
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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 Posted:
Mar 14, 2005 - 23:43 |
 
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I wouldn't mind using Team Strength more if that was also what was used for handicap rolls. The current Team Strength formula makes it impossible for teams like Britnoth's halflings to get a game. If the handicaps for javabowl worked off of Team Strength or got rid for the rule for two teams to be with in 40 strength of each other would both make the games more fair. |
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bogh
Joined: Oct 31, 2004
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| Posted:
Mar 14, 2005 - 23:43 |
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Ehm....
You are complaining about a potential 14 point discrepancy in TS? Even if we accept that their rating is inflated by 14 points, that is hardly a big problem - I take on teams within 14 of my TS all the time and I sincerely doubt the 14 points make any difference in my win percentage one way or the other.
There is bound to be problems in any mathematical description of a teams actual ability. It can be nothing but an approximation. Changing the equation because some attributes are not useable in certain situations and thus cause what you perceive to be a major disturbance, seems excessive to me. I look at your problem and I wonder whether it really is a problem (as many have pointed out you can free up lizzies from being tied up and you can actually tie down ag2 players with an extra tz). I also wonder whether it has much effect, if we play along and say it is a problem.
In short: Lets say that the ag1 combo warrants some sort of discount. So maybe halve the strength calculation bonus. Now you are complaining about 7 points of TS making it impossible to find a decent matchup. |
_________________
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 15, 2005 - 10:36 |
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OK... I try to make it clear, why I think a change is needed:
First of all: Why is it important to have a TS-formula as accurate as possible?
1) Most of the time, games are arranged with equal TS in mind. If I challenge a TS130 team with my TS145-team, my opponent will decline far more often without looking at the team comparing to a TS130 vs TS130 challenge.
2) As a result of 1) teams are at a disadvantage, if the TS-number is above their true strenght. That´s because a normal rated team will play teams with equal TS at average (if the coach hasn´t other plans). One game they will play up 5-10 TS-points, but then there will be game when they play down 5-10 TS-points. A Team that is rated 15 points above it´s true strenght won´t play weaker teams, because in order to do this, they would have to challenge down 20-25 points.
3) The statistics show, that teams suffering from being overrated, are not played as often as the other teams. If you look at the statistic-page of fumbbl, you will see, that lizzardmen and amazons (who suffer from the blodge-bonus) are those teams with the least played games among all teams, that have been in [R] since the beginning - stunties aside. I bet, that if you look at the stats from the last year, you will find lizzies on the bottom of the [R]-teams in terms of "number of games played".
Now: Why do I think the lizzies are overrated?
1) About 1,5 years ago, the TS-formula was tweaked. Every player having MA6+ and ST4+ got an additional bonus of 2 points (20k gold) on top of the values for high ST and MA. The intention was to show the advantage of having a blitzer with +ST who can cover the backfield by himself or a ballcarrier who is really hard to sack - but who can score in 2 turns regulary. As a sideeffect, the lizzie-TS went up by 14, as most of the teams employ a krox and 6 sauri, although a saurus can NOT be regarded as a ballcarrier and they cannot blitz, if they are in a TZ. AG1 is the handicap, that keeps the ST4+MA6-combo in check - so they need no bonus.
Suggestion: Add AG2+ as another condition for this bonus.
2) Some of you say: Hey, but with Break Tackle, they can dodge around and hit things and I can´t tie them up with a lino any more.
That´s true, but here is the 2nd imbalance on the TS-formula: They EXTREME value of break tackle.
Sure - Break Tackle is a valuable skill, but taking Break Tackle on a sauri increases his value by 5 (FIVE!) points. So in order to make use of the high MA/ST combo, I have to take a skill, that increases the value of my player by the amount, a +ST does.
Just to make a comparison:
A sauri with Break Tackle is worth 15 points (which breaks down to 135k gold) - a +AG-Chaos Warrior is also worth 15 points.
To be honest:
Who would take a 6419 Break Tackle player over a player with the statline 5449 ?
Another irony on Break Tackle:
A Chaos Warrior with Break Tackle (though he doesn´t really need it) is worth 16 Points (140k gold) - MORE than a +AG-CW.
Conclusion: Don´t take Break Tackle if you can live without it.
Suggestion: Remove 2 of the 3 bonuspoints from Break Tackle - counts as a normal skill and give +1 point if take on a ST4+ player.
3) Skinks are worth as much as a Wood Elf lino.
If I compare both, the skink has only the advantage in speed (though the difference between 7 and 8 isn´t so big) and when dodging into a TZ. Sure - skinks come along with dodge, but when I have a really inportant move to make (dodging into the open to score) I usually have a reroll to backup the action. In every other way, the WE lino is superior to the skink. When those 2 players improve, the value of the skink rises faster than the value of the WE-lino. So a skink with sidestep is worth more then a WE-lino with block.
Suggestion: Stunty reduces the cumulative by 1. In this way, a WE-lino will grow faster TS-wise than a skink.
I just hope, that anyone will read the whole text  |
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Tinkywinky
Joined: Aug 25, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 15, 2005 - 11:11 |
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Everything you say is completly right Circularlogic, I have thought of the issue on more than one occasion. It's extremly frustrating to see the responses you get.
1) "Hey it's not so bad, nobody cares about ts that much anyway..." That's just a load of crap, if nobody cared there would be no point in having it there in the first place.
2) "But the sauris and skinks ARE that good". Anyone saying this must think that lizardmen teams are way stronger than other teams. If lizardmen teams actually were this much better something would have to be done about them in the rules. But of course they are not, so this point is moot too. |
_________________
Do you play ranked and wonder where all the good coaches are? Are you also from Sweden? Then join the Swedish league! |
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Kommando
Joined: Dec 08, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 15, 2005 - 13:39 |
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yeh, the lizzie-TS thing is extremely frustrating IMO, makes you play up all the time basically, and even then its harder to find a game since you'd get handicaps most of the time... go circular go! |
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Mully
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 15, 2005 - 13:50 |
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I got 3 lizzy teams in U leagues. Believe me they are NOT overpowering. |
_________________
Owner of the REAL Larson
Come join the CCC League |
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Wizard
Joined: Jul 09, 2004
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| Posted:
Mar 15, 2005 - 14:01 |
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| Quote: |
Circular:
I just hope, that anyone will read the whole text
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Dude, you lost me after "First of all..." |
_________________
"As long as one person lives in darkness then it seems to be a responsibility to tell other people." |
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Webbe
Joined: Aug 13, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 15, 2005 - 14:42 |
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Just stumbled upon this thread and ready it all trhough (yes, every post) and I have to say I very much agree with CircularLogic. I don't play ranked anymore though (actually, this could be one of the reasons) , so I'm not affected. |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 15, 2005 - 15:27 |
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Thx for your support.
Maybe now Wizard consideres spending some time on reading the comprehension at least 
So I´m waiting for the Nay-sayers to turn up, telling me why not changing the system is preferable. |
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mutescreamer
Joined: Apr 09, 2004
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| Posted:
Mar 15, 2005 - 15:53 |
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i only played 8 games with lizzies before moving them to U.....but i thought they were pretty good to be honest......but i didn't play many elf teams with them....which might be why. NOt sure how they feature at higher TR's but at low TR's the difference in ts seems completely justified by the teams ability |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 15, 2005 - 17:59 |
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mutescreamer:
If it´s so, then make a team of lizzies, play 2 games. You should be around TS 150 then.
Choose a non-stunty race and I will create a team and play it up to TS 150 - then we make 10-20 matches. Maybe this will convince you. |
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BunnyPuncher
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 15, 2005 - 18:11 |
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What's real funny is that the team considered the "second best" (after CDs) is given a soft ride by the TS formula. Orc teams imho are significantly undervalued. |
Last edited by BunnyPuncher on %b %15, %2005 - %18:%Mar; edited 1 time in total |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 15, 2005 - 18:16 |
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Lizzies with no death are at TS 150 after 2 games. |
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BunnyPuncher
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 15, 2005 - 18:16 |
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Yeah.. just fixed my post cuz i ignored first 4 pages of conversation... i know.. shocking... |
_________________
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 15, 2005 - 18:18 |
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OMG!! Bunny!! I am disgusted!!
Do you have to say anything on the topic? |
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