JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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 Posted:
Oct 18, 2014 - 01:01 |
 
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Wow Shraaaag's script is cool. Box Griefers have played 30.7% against the big three but I sure wish I had played vs less Goblins! |
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Pull down the veil - actively bad for the hobby! |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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| Posted:
Oct 18, 2014 - 01:08 |
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| Dunenzed wrote: | | DukeTyrion wrote: | | Dunenzed wrote: |
I suppose the real question for you Duke is what would get you playing your Woodies again? |
Nothing in this thread I have seen suggests that my woodies will not still be matched up 800tv. When that happens enough times on a team that needs recovery games (i.e. playing with 5 AV7 Loners) you stop playing them.
The old teams 'fix' at low levels damaged old fragile teams. |
What about the idea of an Open Round Robin Brawl for recovery games, jubilee games, or blood feuds like I suggested on page 19 in this post.
Would something like that make playing woodies feasible? |
While Duke is tehnically correct that nothing suggested would help him in that regard, if he put them in the ARR Brawl he's got the talent to not only win it all but also get almost 4 recovery games. I did that with my Ogres after one got killed in the first game i ever played with them. |
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Endzone
Joined: Apr 01, 2008
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| Posted:
Oct 18, 2014 - 01:12 |
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| DukeTyrion wrote: | | Just be careful not to wander into the scenario of damaging the enjoyment of those that do play the box, when gambled against the chance of bringing in new players that might like the box. |
I ONLY play box. I would like to play a team past TV 1500 and build it to compete in a major. As it stands I feel like a fool if I do this with anything but clawpomb, because I am just some meat. Every now and then I try to build that clawpomb team (because it seems like the only way) until I feel like I am being too unsociable (which doesn't take long). Let's not pretend that it is only [R] players (who never play box) who are calling for this. I suspect I am unusual in playing only Box, lots of coaches dabble in both [R] and [B]. I don't mind some clawpomb (it is right for the balance of the game so Orcs and Dwarves aren't overpowered), but at a certain point in the Box it's mostly clawpomb, at that point it is a leveller in terms of winning (In my opinion because team design isn't so much of a factor given that everyone knows the cookie cutter build - and anyone can throw 2db and pile on), and team building is futile. At the moment low level TV Box is lots of fun for all (come and play for goodness sake!) and at higher TV it is fun for clawpombers who like to trade punches every other game and ruin someone's team the other. Those few that play like that over and over again are fine, but why pander to them? Why stand in the way of making the division something so many would like to see the Box be? With the proposed suitability change anyone who wants to coach 'the big three' can. They can carry on their merry way having clawpomb heaven. What it means is there is that bit of extra incentive - that bit of extra chance - that for the majority of teams the box could be something more than just a 15-30 game sprint and reload. I wonder whether we are pandering to a small number of vocal coaches who may like the notoriety of scaring many coaches out of the division, and ignoring the majority by dismissing them as [R] coaches who therefore don't deserve a vote. |
Last edited by Endzone on %b %18, %2014 - %10:%Oct; edited 1 time in total |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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| Posted:
Oct 18, 2014 - 01:22 |
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Well Endzone I do hear what you're saying and appreciate that you aren't a wahh wahh my pixels died kind of a guy. The good news is that you don't need a ridiculously sculpted 2700 TV Wood Elf team to compete for a box major. |
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Pull down the veil - actively bad for the hobby! |
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Endzone
Joined: Apr 01, 2008
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| Posted:
Oct 18, 2014 - 01:30 |
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| JimmyFantastic wrote: | | Well Endzone I do hear what you're saying and appreciate that you aren't a wahh wahh my pixels died kind of a guy. The good news is that you don't need a ridiculously sculpted 2700 TV Wood Elf team to compete for a box major. |
Jimmy, I respect you, hopefully you know that. I like the way that you have firm views and are not scared to voice them - even in the face of a hostile crowd. Like you, I just want to say it the way I see it. With respect to the certain attributes of woodelves - watch that space, and everyone else come and join the box elf extravaganza!. Clawpomb is rubbish against the power of woodelves! |
Last edited by Endzone on %b %18, %2014 - %10:%Oct; edited 1 time in total |
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Dunenzed
Joined: Oct 28, 2011
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| Posted:
Oct 18, 2014 - 01:53 |
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| koadah wrote: | | Open RR is not really very Box like. |
Nope it's note. But we've got a guy that played over 5000 games on the site, has won a Human League Conference Title, has the second oldest wood elf team in the box, has an overall 67% win ratio, and he feels he has to resort to a tedious monobuild nurgle team to survive in the box.
He thinks rebuilding is too difficult with the current box scheduler, so maybe the option to opt out of the scheduler for 3 games to rebuild might help? |
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Lorebass
Joined: Jun 25, 2010
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Keep it clean and without the attacks guys. Lets try keeping this forum constructive so I don't have to waste my time.
We are using this thing to get people to want to start using the box again. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Oct 18, 2014 - 04:06 |
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| Dunenzed wrote: | | koadah wrote: | | Open RR is not really very Box like. |
Nope it's note. But we've got a guy that played over 5000 games on the site, has won a Human League Conference Title, has the second oldest wood elf team in the box, has an overall 67% win ratio, and he feels he has to resort to a tedious monobuild nurgle team to survive in the box.
He thinks rebuilding is too difficult with the current box scheduler, so maybe the option to opt out of the scheduler for 3 games to rebuild might help? |
Generally speaking an Open RR is a waste of time with too many competitive coaches. They mostly want to sit and pick. Which is obviously the best competitive strategy. You may as well be in Ranked. 
An all elf swiss or KO would make more sense to me.
All elf, all ARR, all human etc brawls or swiss but I really don't see ORRs as Box like.
I find it hard to feel sorry for Duke if all he wants to do is maintain the status quo or take us back to the ultra min/maxing days.
I don't want to build a new team either. But you don't play up by a huge amount every match. Some people don't want to play up. Well I would guess that quite a few don't want to play vs the Slime Barons.
The Dragons are currently around 1440. I woud expect that they could find spme fairly even game at euro peak time. |
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Balle2000
Joined: Sep 25, 2008
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| Posted:
Oct 18, 2014 - 05:10 |
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Using Koadah's script, I collected two sets of high-TV racial statistics for Blackbox. I wanted to see the 1500+ without the 30+ games parameter from Christer's list, and also the percentages at the even higher 1800+ TV range. Thought I'd share it.
This is all after the latest big scheduler fix.
TV 1500+
| Code: | Games Percent Cumulative%
Chaos 3288 16.1% 16%
Nurgle 2488 12.2% 28%
Chaos Dwarf 1599 7.8% 36%
Human 1542 7.6% 44%
Necromantic 1316 6.5% 50%
Dwarf 1158 5.7% 56%
Orc 1041 5.1% 61%
Lizardmen 1036 5.1% 66%
Undead 1026 5.0% 71%
Khemri 832 4.1% 75%
Chaos Pact 710 3.5% 79%
Skaven 644 3.2% 82%
Dark Elf 544 2.7% 85%
Wood Elf 472 2.3% 87%
Vampire 449 2.2% 89%
High Elf 404 2.0% 91%
Norse 360 1.8% 93%
Ogre 348 1.7% 95%
Amazon 256 1.3% 96%
Elf 254 1.2% 97%
Underworld 245 1.2% 98%
Slann 205 1.0% 99%
Goblin 110 0.5% 100%
Halfling 57 0.3% 100% |
TV 1800+
| Code: | Games Percent Cumulative%
Chaos 1389 21.1% 21%
Nurgle 1193 18.2% 39%
Chaos Dwarf 501 7.6% 47%
Necromantic 367 5.6% 53%
Human 342 5.2% 58%
Dwarf 301 4.6% 62%
Orc 284 4.3% 67%
Undead 276 4.2% 71%
Lizardmen 268 4.1% 75%
Vampire 213 3.2% 78%
Khemri 212 3.2% 81%
Skaven 187 3.2% 85%
Chaos Pact 184 2.8% 87%
High Elf 181 2.8% 90%
Dark Elf 165 2.5% 93%
Ogre 108 1.6% 94%
Norse 105 1.6% 96%
Wood Elf 86 1.3% 97%
Elf 67 1.0% 98%
Slann 52 0.8% 99%
Amazon 35 0.5% 99%
Underworld 25 0.4% 100%
Halfling 17 0.3% 100%
Goblin 14 0.2% 100% |
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Dunenzed
Joined: Oct 28, 2011
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| Posted:
Oct 18, 2014 - 06:12 |
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| koadah wrote: | | Generally speaking an Open RR is a waste of time with too many competitive coaches. They mostly want to sit and pick. Which is obviously the best competitive strategy. You may as well be in Ranked. |
Yeah, it certainly could be an issue, but surely those with a tendancy to sit and pick would continue to use R as it's far more convenient? Waiting for an ORR to be set up, and then finding someone to play in the ORR is significantly more hassle than the Gamefinder.
| Quote: | | An all elf swiss or KO would make more sense to me. All elf, all ARR, all human etc brawls or swiss but I really don't see ORRs as Box like. |
I know the XFL sets a precedent for race based tournament play, so this sort of thing could be fun as well. Not sure a single race event really spins my wheels - but ARR or an ARRvHLP event would be great. But they still don't offer the arena necessary to facilitate a really well promoted grudge match or milestone event.
| Quote: | I find it hard to feel sorry for Duke if all he wants to do is maintain the status quo or take us back to the ultra min/maxing days.
I don't want to build a new team either. But you don't play up by a huge amount every match. Some people don't want to play up. Well I would guess that quite a few don't want to play vs the Slime Barons.
The Dragons are currently around 1440. I woud expect that they could find spme fairly even game at euro peak time. |
Well its not really about feeling sorry for Duke. He is a smart guy with great skill levels, that in the past has contributed to the box experience by playing a range of races. That he's given up on all but his rock team in the box is significant - and it would be great to know what play options would induce him and others like him to try something else from time to time. I'm not sure we've heard that yet. |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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| Posted:
Oct 18, 2014 - 10:14 |
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| mrt1212 wrote: |
Personal Desire doesn't trump Collective Desire for me in a multiplayer game. It might for you. |
Not at all. I want the Box to be "pure". Let the people who play decide the composition and have the scheduler set up roughly even TV matches.
If 50% of people use Clawpomb then that means 50% of people want to use Clawpomb and I want to play Clawpomb roughly 50% of the time, not be falsely adjusted up or down. If 60% of people used Elves then I would want to play Elves about 60% of the time. I am not pro bash at all, I am pro people using whatever the hell they want. So far the people have spoken and they want clawpomb. IF all the whiners, naysayers and SJWs started using softer races maybe there would be change and that kind of change would be fine with me, because it would be what the people actually want... but this trying to mould the Box into their own personal vision of what it "should" be, I just can't agree with that at all.
Oh and out of interest can anyone give us the same kind of racial stats for ranked please? |
_________________
Pull down the veil - actively bad for the hobby! |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Oct 18, 2014 - 13:48 |
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| Dunenzed wrote: | | koadah wrote: | | Generally speaking an Open RR is a waste of time with too many competitive coaches. They mostly want to sit and pick. Which is obviously the best competitive strategy. You may as well be in Ranked. |
Yeah, it certainly could be an issue, but surely those with a tendancy to sit and pick would continue to use R as it's far more convenient? Waiting for an ORR to be set up, and then finding someone to play in the ORR is significantly more hassle than the Gamefinder. |
Proper ORR picking makes ranked look like a kiddies picnic.
| Dunenzed wrote: |
| Quote: | | An all elf swiss or KO would make more sense to me. All elf, all ARR, all human etc brawls or swiss but I really don't see ORRs as Box like. |
I know the XFL sets a precedent for race based tournament play, so this sort of thing could be fun as well. Not sure a single race event really spins my wheels - but ARR or an ARRvHLP event would be great. But they still don't offer the arena necessary to facilitate a really well promoted grudge match or milestone event. |
If people deserve honours the tournament staff can set them up as they did for Bill.
e.g. You could do a birthday honours event where Christer & staff pick say, 8 coaches for a special tournament.
| Dunenzed wrote: |
| Quote: | I find it hard to feel sorry for Duke if all he wants to do is maintain the status quo or take us back to the ultra min/maxing days.
I don't want to build a new team either. But you don't play up by a huge amount every match. Some people don't want to play up. Well I would guess that quite a few don't want to play vs the Slime Barons.
The Dragons are currently around 1440. I woud expect that they could find spme fairly even game at euro peak time. |
Well its not really about feeling sorry for Duke. He is a smart guy with great skill levels, that in the past has contributed to the box experience by playing a range of races. That he's given up on all but his rock team in the box is significant - and it would be great to know what play options would induce him and others like him to try something else from time to time. I'm not sure we've heard that yet. |
I have given up too. I will only play elves/humans in competitive events like tournaments/Sprints/E.L.F.
For pick up games I use chaos. Sure enough my last Box game was vs Duke.
It seems to me that Duke doesn't want to play big TV differences. Well, Christers plan seen to be to increase the traffic to the Box. If that works it will reduce the number of big TV difference games. Though the downside of that is that min/maxing would become more viable.
The difficulty of rebuilding is bit of a red herring IMO. Duke's team is in playable shape. The issue is that it is not worth rebuilding as they will only get beaten back down again. And he doesn't like TV gaps.
I think that Endzone's post pretty much nails it.
I used to be a 'Box Coach'. I haven't been a 'Ranked Coach' for years. I'm mostly a 'League Coach' now. With new league options coming you may well see more coaches jumping ship.
Box options seem to be:
1. "Play 30". Play 30 games then create a new team.
2. "Hardcore". E.L.F., ARR, HLP style play till you drop.
3. "Go over to the Darkside". Just CPOMB baby!
As it stands right now for casual 30+ play 3 is your best option. |
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O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - 19th June! ---- All Star Bowl XII - Teams of Stars - Sign up NOW! |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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| Posted:
Oct 18, 2014 - 14:15 |
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Read the following with this prejudice: the goal is to grow the Box by convincing coaches who have turned up their nose at it to give it another shot. If all you want is a place for the same exact crowd of people to go until they burn out and it dies off, then my argument won't make any sense.
| JimmyFantastic wrote: | Not at all. I want the Box to be "pure". ...
If 50% of people use Clawpomb then that means 50% of people want to use Clawpomb and I want to play Clawpomb roughly 50% of the time, not be falsely adjusted up or down. If 60% of people used Elves then I would want to play Elves about 60% of the time. I am not pro bash at all, I am pro people using whatever the hell they want. |
These are two different things. What's really happening is that 50 (okay, 35) percent of people want to ClawPOMB, and another large group doesn't want to have to play in a Chaotic-skewed environment for one reason or another (nostalgia*, pixelhugging, etc.).
| Quote: | | So far the people have spoken and they want clawpomb. |
Who are the people? The current Box players? If your goal is to grow the box you have to look beyond that constituency.
| Quote: | | IF all the whiners, naysayers and SJWs started using softer races maybe there would be change and that kind of change would be fine with me, because it would be what the people actually want... but this trying to mould the Box into their own personal vision of what it "should" be, I just can't agree with that at all. |
Three things:
1) "Be the change that you seek" is fine-sounding wisdom, but it doesn't actually work, it's a sucker's bet.**
2) If you want to attract people, you have to actually, you know, attract them. Saying, "Well, this is what we are right now, and if you don't like it play somewhere else," is not going to draw new coaches.
3) The Box is an artificial, arbitrary concept. It is inherently, fundamentally, molded by human hands. There is no "state of Nature" re: FUMBBL, except a state of no FUMBBL at all.
| Quote: | | Oh and out of interest can anyone give us the same kind of racial stats for ranked please? |
Yes, please. Lacking the skills to do this, my prediction is that the top teams played will be Orcs, Chaos, and Dwarfs. I looked up my personal stats (games against, not with, ofc), and the only opposing races over 6% for me, personally (814 games, fair sample but possibly skewed by my team selections and gamefinding strategy) are: Orcs (9.2%), Chaos (7.6%), Dwarfs (7.2%), and Necromantic (6.5%), with Chaos Dwarfs and Undead just under 6%. To get to half counting down from the top would be those six races, plus Humans and Dark Elves at about 5% each.
* This is where I am. Ranked + liberal greenlight policy is much like the open BB I knew and loved. If Box were more like that (beyond 30 games), I'd play more Box. As is, having heard what I've heard on this thread about more coaches on in the wee hours and more variety at lower levels, I'm liking what I'm hearing, but I still don't know why I'd bother to build a new team if it's only got a 30-game life-expectancy.
** Nothing wrong with doing that too, while you work to change the circumstances around you, but just changing your behavior without trying to influence others isn't going to change the world. |
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Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor.
Last edited by JackassRampant on %b %18, %2014 - %15:%Oct; edited 1 time in total |
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dode74
Joined: Aug 14, 2009
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| Posted:
Oct 18, 2014 - 15:05 |
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| Quote: | | the same kind of racial stats for ranked please |
I only have data up to Nov 2012 (and if someone can send me a more recent scrape that'd be great), but for the period from which Box came online as a parallel (Jan 2011) the races played in ranked are as follows:
| Code: | Race Total Percentage Cumulative
Orc 11176 7.27 7.27
Dark Elf 11110 7.23 14.5
Skaven 10077 6.56 21.06
Human 9838 6.4 27.46
Chaos 9170 5.97 33.43
Wood Elf 8830 5.75 39.18
Necromantic 7792 5.07 44.25
Undead 7301 4.75 49
Lizardmen 7132 4.64 53.64
Norse 7070 4.6 58.24
Chaos Pact 6857 4.46 62.7
Chaos Dwarf 6341 4.13 66.83
Dwarf 5952 3.87 70.7
High Elf 5690 3.7 74.4
Nurgle 4874 3.17 77.57
Slann 4864 3.17 80.74
Khemri 4815 3.13 83.87
Elf 4495 2.92 86.79
Amazon 4320 2.81 89.6
Vampire 4089 2.66 92.26
Goblin 3468 2.26 94.52
Underworld 3429 2.23 96.75
Halfling 2585 1.68 98.43
Ogre 2404 1.56 99.99 |
Mirror matches were only counted once, but consist of ~2-4% of matches for all races. |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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| Posted:
Oct 18, 2014 - 15:09 |
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Well, I'm a box player.
I have been happy to play box at mid range TV and it was fine. There was some cpomb but it was maybe 1 in 5 games.
Now new rules have been implemented. The low tv range is free of cpomb teams, but I'd have to start over constantly to enjoy that. So this is not an improvement afaic.
At this point I want something to be done about cpomb because running a tv 1600 team has become utterly unenjoyable in the last few month.
I don't want it to be some sort of handicapping bash teams because box is the only place where you get to use them.
Putting the most common teams against each other seems to solve most problems. There will still be an abundance of bash teams left to play against everyone else. They don't really deserve a priviledge to be pitched against less common races.
Aside from finer questions like how to adjust the likelyness of a schedule based on race vs the difference in TV, the question remains for me if the suggested 6% mark isn't a bit low and should be rather set at 8% or at least 7%. |
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