Leilond
Joined: Jan 02, 2012
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 Posted:
Apr 30, 2015 - 17:08 |
 
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| PainState wrote: | | Leilond wrote: | You NEVER know where a Gutter will be an when, nor which of your gutter will recive the ball. You change side and profondity so many times during 3-4 turns that the "intended" reciver is out of TD range and another is in...
Side step, leap, dauntless, tackle, strip ball... even fend or diving tackle... there are so many skills that are usefull 5 times (some even 10-15) per match I cannot consider to take a skill that there the chance I will use pheraps once or twice |
Oh my, if you are using SS,L,D,T,SB 10 times a match, then, sir, that is the luckiest Gutter of all time. He should of been knocked over and stomped on so many times in his life that he is lucky to even be alive.
You might use that particular gutter once or twice during a match, that gutter is in protection mode the other 14 turns most of the time.
Overlooking catch and SureFeet are a mistake IMO, because at the end of matches and the RR are running dry or out, you have built in rerolls to perform critical actions at the end of matches or OT. |
Again, you NEVER KNOW where your gutter will be at a givent time. You really really don't know if you'll really be able to use Catch, while you know nearly for sure that each of your gutter will recive at least one block during the game, and you're agains sure that if you sum up the block recived by your gutters and the blocks DONE by your gutters, you surely go to 20 or more, while you'll do PHERAPHS no more than 5-6 catches and PHERAPS 1-2 with the catcher and more often than not you succeds at them
I try to explain again. You really don't know which of your gutter will recive the ball nor witch of you gutter will have to sack the ball carrier, but you're SURE they'll recive some blocks and will make a lot.
Thus, skills like side step, fend, strip ball, tackle and dautless, will be used MUCH MORE.
Gutters, at high TV, do EVERYTHING in the team, really, they do ALL the job. Picking a skill that I will going to use PHERAPS once in a match, isn't a possibility
And again, look around, all the coaches, all the skaven team with a decent record, even in the box (like Tarabaralla's teams or other famous coaches). If all of these coaches win a lot of matches with skaven and none take Catch... there's a reason. Gutters aren't only "scorer", they're the team, the sackers, the runners, the markers.
You'll see some sure feet, that's sure, because you're going to use it before or then during the match, but not catch, I've never seen it in a replay and said "Wow, great choice", never. One game over 10 there can happen that catch could be usefull, but the other 9, none of the other skill on any gutter was a waste. |
Last edited by Leilond on %b %30, %2015 - %17:%Apr; edited 2 times in total |
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Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
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Apr 30, 2015 - 17:10 |
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Azure takes catch on a dedicated oneturner. It's not a bad idea, even though I don't do it myself. I've previously posted math on how wood elf catchers are better oneturners than gutter runners, the math coming down to catch being better than a third GFI roll. Catch on a gutter can significantly reduce the number of failed offensive possessions, especially one turn attempts.
It's not strategy that I follow, but there is good logic behind it. |
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Leilond
Joined: Jan 02, 2012
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Apr 30, 2015 - 17:12 |
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| Rat_Salat wrote: | Azure takes catch on a dedicated oneturner. It's not a bad idea, even though I don't do it myself. I've previously posted math on how wood elf catchers are better oneturners than gutter runners, the math coming down to catch being better than a third GFI roll. Catch on a gutter can significantly reduce the number of failed offensive possessions, especially one turn attempts.
It's not strategy that I follow, but there is good logic behind it. |
I said that before. Only the oneturner, after +MA, Block, Spring, Sure feet and leap, take Catch. No other gutter runner take it, never
Skaven do not play "pass game" and there isn't "dedicated recivers". They change formation every turn, because there aren't in the team other AG4 players that can help them. Thus, the "gutter with catch" can finish to be the one that blitz to open the path, or the one that make the assist for the ball handler to pass and give it to another gutter in a better position |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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May 01, 2015 - 00:11 |
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You don't even need to take block on your one turner. If you're doing it right he will never get hit.
He might get fouled, but he will never get hit  |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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May 01, 2015 - 00:25 |
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| licker wrote: | You don't even need to take block on your one turner. If you're doing it right he will never get hit.
He might get fouled, but he will never get hit |
I agree, I was going to post to make the same point, but, alas, I have moved on. Iam in the minority opinion that free re-rolls are a good thing. |
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Comish of the:  |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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May 01, 2015 - 00:33 |
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If that's the minority opinion on reroll skills then I don't want to be in the majority. |
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Qaz
Joined: Apr 28, 2004
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May 01, 2015 - 00:42 |
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I roll with gutters. But then I am not much of a passing guy and prefer the running game. Here the extra movement and ag is just way better than what the thrower can bring. |
_________________
Superstition brings bad luck.
"he who has relied least on fortune is established
the strongest"
Niccolo Machiavelli |
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seanh1986
Joined: Jul 16, 2005
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May 01, 2015 - 02:14 |
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| bghandras wrote: | | One way to formulate is to lend the verbiage from american football. There are different type of running backs, and also there is a fullback. The latter is slow, but strong and reliable. I would concentrate on the block and sure hand skills as essential, and the dodge enablers as player dependent. Strong ones need Break tackle, agile ones need dodge, and there is a the 2 head for some exceptional cases. |
I think the terms "power back" vs. "speed back" from american football may be more appropriate. There is also "balanced backs".. The way I'd translate them to blood bowl would be as follows:
Power back: High strength (4 or 5 str), low speed (max 6), avg/low agility (max 3)
Example: 6/5/3/?, 6/4/2/?, 5/4/3/?, 5/4/4/? ...
These would be your bull centaurs, chaos warriors, big guys
Speed back: high speed (min 7), low/avg strength (max 3), mid/high agility (min 3, better if more)
Example: 8/2/3/?, 9/2/4/?, 7/3/3/7, ...
These would be your catchers / gutter runners
Balanced back: good speed (min 6), good strength (~ 4), good agility (~ 4)
Example: 6/4/4/?, 7/4/4/?, ...
These would be vampires and players with stat increases which make them more unique (e.g., +Str speed back = balanced) |
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Wizfall
Joined: Dec 09, 2011
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May 02, 2015 - 09:21 |
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I would not use a thrower as a BC but i would buy one.
He will rarely be potentially useful but when he is he can be a game changing :
- when it's better to have a ST3 BC.
- when you have no more reroll late in the game for a decisive OTT or pick up.
- when you lack GR for the OTT or during the game to both pick up the ball and hand off to a GR to run away.
- in the exceptional occasion when you want to pass and need the last 1/2 GR left forward or to make a hand off + pass(things must really going bad then though hehe).
For 20k i think it's a very slightly positive deal. |
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Medon
Joined: Jan 28, 2015
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May 02, 2015 - 11:36 |
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In my humble opinion as a newbie, str2 ball carriers suck big time. It is too easy for leaping/dodging sackers to get 1d or 2d blocks on them. So if you ever make a cage with skaven, the thrower should be the bc and the storm vermin should guard the corners. GRs are never 'real' ball carriers. They stay out of reach and then do a pass->handoff->score using two other GRs. But that's just my observation so far, I don't know if this is generally true so I am happy to hear other thoughts on the matter |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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May 02, 2015 - 13:25 |
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| Medon wrote: | | In my humble opinion as a newbie, str2 ball carriers suck big time. It is too easy for leaping/dodging sackers to get 1d or 2d blocks on them. So if you ever make a cage with skaven, the thrower should be the bc and the storm vermin should guard the corners. GRs are never 'real' ball carriers. They stay out of reach and then do a pass->handoff->score using two other GRs. But that's just my observation so far, I don't know if this is generally true so I am happy to hear other thoughts on the matter |
I think you already did.
Quite frankly, although some people suggest my advice is only good for rookies and seem to think the tactics I suggest could not withstand a more in depth use, I assure you my advice is solid and a coach who fully embraces the 1000 losses philiosphy, as well as the team building philiosphy will have no problems to at the very least attain a legend rank.
Just because I ask for other peoples opinions doesn't mean I'm not content with the product.
As for your concerns I suggest to consider the potential abilities of your opponent players on a game to game basis. My guide offers ample advice on how to deal with leapers and the like. Keep in mind that a Blodger is much less likely to be knocked over than a skillless player, regardless of the number of dice thrown at him.
Do you have to worry about somebody jumping in your cage or do you have to worry about 5 people cornering your cage and one tagging the carrier? That sort of thing. And if you do, what type of other skills does the attacker have? Especially when counteracting Strip Ball becomes a factor, using a carrying Sure Hander can quickly become very appealing to use over a dedicated carrier but that is not often the case. Likewise if you make proper use of guard, you can minimize the risk of low strength player exposure.
But of ultimate importance is of course always to not have any loop holes in your cage/screen.
One of the worst nightmaires for me is to get stuck on a 3+ dodge with the carrier in the middle of a game or to have to perform a 3+ hand off. A thrower can easily end in such a situation where he either performs such an actions or ends up being exposed.
...And Rat, as strange as this sounds, I did actually get a coherent picture on the matter from the responses. WIzfall pretty much sums it up. People seem to agree that a passer is worthwhile using but if you dig deeper, they don't primarily want him for carrying but for support. And this is also an outlook I can feel very content with. Like Qaz, I'm not sure I'd want to run a passer myself for the suggested reasons, but it is pretty feasible others would. And that is where.. so to speak the center of gravity lies within the community. I'm not sure there ever is going to be a 100% consensus on anything ever. I mean... I don't understand how people can stand teh taste of chocolate.. it pretty much tastes like it looks, seriously.. or onions.. wuah.. |
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Medon
Joined: Jan 28, 2015
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May 02, 2015 - 15:28 |
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Well spoken wreckage. Just wanted to add that I did start reading your 1000 losses playbook and really appreciate all the effort you put in teaching newcomers like me the game! |
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ErobererZim
Joined: Dec 19, 2009
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May 02, 2015 - 17:51 |
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One Turner dont need Block, cause there dont have to Block and he will not blocked so much, and when from Guys who had normaly Block, Tackle +X. for me. +MA, Sprint Sure Feed, Catch, than u can skill Block or Leap or with a double 2Heads, like this Mice https://fumbbl.com/p/player?op=view&player_id=8649857.
For me I dont like the Skaven Thrower, 4me I think AG4 Players be better as the Throwers, yes WHEN he gain +AG he will be great, but normal the Throwers of my Mice Teams ended on the LOS and/or Died pretty fast, cause Mices be so fast Screwed of Players so his place is only the LOS on the next KickOff. And with AG3 skilling per passing is for me to risky when I can make an realy easy running Game with the Gutters. I use an Linemice as Carrier in both of my Mice Teams https://fumbbl.com/p/player?player_id=7442616, https://fumbbl.com/p/player?player_id=8342365 cause +AG and there made an well Job till now. |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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May 02, 2015 - 17:52 |
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Wreckage, your advice to Medon is solid, but a lot of it really doesn't apply to how many coaches approach skaven, including coaches who have won majors with them...
What does that mean?
It means there is more than one right way to approach playing skaven, you say there will never be a 100% consensus, but there needed ever be one in the 1st place!
The throwers place on a skaven team is largely defined by the skills the REST of the roster develops or already has if you're thinking of adding one to an established side. If your gutters are beat up, or mng, then the value of the thrower is magnified. If you have 4 healthy and skilled gutters then sure, the thrower is a luxury you don't need.
Which is why many of us argue for using a thrower at low TVs (because we're playing to win *A* game, not playing 'who cares I'm building for a tournament'. Beyond that, unless you advocated carrying 4+ rrs the value of the built in skills on the thrower shine at the ends of halfs where you need your one turn attempts. Sure there are situations where you can use MA9 to make a pass unnecessary, but there are equal cases (especially against teams with kick) where you will need that pass.
No one here has suggested that you can't or shouldn't play without a thrower, what has been accomplished (hopefully) is to detail exactly why and how a thrower might benefit your team. All this talk about 'skaven ball carrier' is just odd to me, since I don't play them that way and I don't think it's a 'smart' way to play them (match up dependent). Building a specialize ball carrier for skaven is just odd, because you have 5 players (4 gutters and a thrower) who can all do it perfectly well, *depending* on the matchup.
Maybe that's where the gold is left to mine. Breaking down how to handle certain matchups, but that's not such a skaven specific issue, though they do benefit more from being able to play either style vs. slow or fast teams. Not every roster has that luxury, and thus for some teams, guarded cage crawl is the only preferred option. |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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May 02, 2015 - 18:00 |
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@EZ...
That's an odd way to build them honestly. Waiting around for a +AG linerat? Why not just use the thrower anyway, he brings sure hands even if you don't care at all about pass.
And again, AG3 and pass is BETTER than AG4 without rr. If you are concerned about saving rrs, which you should ALWAYS be concerned about. When I play or spec rookieish coaches you notice that pretty quickly, they are more than happy to burn rrs on plays that could have used a player who had a built in rr for it. Then, they are screwed on the catch or the gfi because that rr is gone.
I'm certainly not going to advocate a passing game for any one, but some teams still benefit from it more than others. Sure, this is usually elfs, but on elfs the built in rr is on the catcher, so any AG4 will do for throwing it.
On skaven, unless you take catch on your gutters (which isn't terrible, but it's usually a late skill, and doesn't get spammed on all of them) the built in rr is on your thrower.
Really cannot stress that concept enough. Yeah, you can buy and use your team rrs however you want, but you don't really get good at this game until you understand the power the built in ones generate over the course of many turns. Granted, that's not pass, since you shouldn't be passing every turn. Mostly it's dodge, but also sure feet for players like Bulls. Block/wrestle, while not dependent on rrs fall into this category as well for turning 1/9 fails into 1/36 fails on 2dbs. |
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