| Poll |
| Should we change the rules to encourage more passing? |
| Yes |
|
19% |
[ 15 ] |
| No |
|
80% |
[ 62 ] |
|
| Total Votes : 77 |
|
Harad
Joined: May 11, 2014
|
 Posted:
Jun 01, 2015 - 14:47 |
 
|
Making passing more effective is easy. Doing so in a way that retains balance is hard.
The effectiveness of passing is a sliding scale and one could put it anywhere one wanted on that scale. Blood bowl is essentially a game of probability and so it as about manipulating that.
The extreme way to make passing more effective is not to require any dice to be rolled to make a pass.
In the middle somewhere you make safe throw much more prevalent and/or dish out other passing skills or improve the odds of making a pass.
At the other extreme you make the odds worse.
So improving the effectiveness of passing is easy. The issue is that, under most sensible suggestions, this is likely to favour the teams that are best at passing (e.g. elves). This will increase their win percentages and currently most races win fairly close to 50% of their games at most TVs (a remarkable feat of balance if one thinks about it). So if you want to improve passing you probably have to change other things to retain the balance. Namely you have to make running the ball less effective for the passing teams but retain its effectiveness for the other teams. I don't have a good idea for that.
Note to the above, I'm not suggesting that this is a change that should be made before anyone gets too excited. |
|
|
DukeTyrion
Joined: Feb 18, 2004
|
| Posted:
Jun 01, 2015 - 14:48 |
|
Of course, there is also the other obvious flaw.
Fumbbl plays the stanard CRP rule set and it has already been stated from on high (Games Workshop) that there will be no change to the standard BB Rules for some time (if at all). |
|
|
markor
Joined: May 07, 2015
|
| Posted:
Jun 01, 2015 - 14:49 |
|
Dalfort, I'm not telling anyone anything, I asked them a question (this is a poll thread!). I think a lot of people made the same choice you did, and others just stopped playing. I will continue to play while I am having fun most of the time, but I can see a day when I get bored with watching teams grind their way to a 2-1 against me - I'm sure some would be glad to see me and my ilk go, but there are others like you who might actually enjoy the game more if the rules were changed. |
|
|
bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
|
| Posted:
Jun 01, 2015 - 14:51 |
|
| markor wrote: | | how about suggesting some that would? |
I agree with many that stalling is not depending on guard or piling on. (I would actually argue that MB is stronger than piling on as attrition skill.)
I would like to add that the more "free" blocks are available at the LOS, the easier it is to stall. So I can give you 2 parameters which generally contribute to stalling:
- Number of players on the LOS (currently 3)
- Number of turns in any given half (currently 
So if you want to minimize the stalling experience, then are in theory best at reducing the size of LOs, and the number of rounds in a given "half". (You could run 4*4 rounds, or even 8*2 rounds.)
If you run 8 "halves" with 2 rounds each, then I guarantee lots of passing. On the other hand that would result in many different issues, like imbalancing the rosters. |
|
|
markor
Joined: May 07, 2015
|
| Posted:
Jun 01, 2015 - 14:53 |
|
Harad, I agree that major changes like those you were suggesting would need major adjustments to other rules to ensure a balanced game, that is why I was suggesting relatively minor changes to make a passing game relatively more effective (I would be happy if someone scored a td like this against me once in 10 games!). |
|
|
Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
|
| Posted:
Jun 01, 2015 - 14:53 |
|
So, why is it really that people don't pass?
It's just too risky and too expensive.
Change of Safe Throw is probably one of the most interesting changes that happened in that department because HE passers now essentially don't have to be too concerned about dropping the ball anymore.
This is huge. But you will still end up in a position where you have to wonder:
a) What can I really accomplish by passing?
b) What skills and abilities am I neglecting to be able to do passing? (and here is first and foremost to mention survival skills like block and dodge that also enhance your winning odds at the same time)
c) Even if I have Safe Throw, won't a failed pass make my passer end up in a poor position?
So what would make passing more attractive?
Cheaper passing skills, more attractive passing effects, good passing skills on slow and unagile players. Ie players that would rather want to pass than dodge. |
Last edited by Wreckage on %b %02, %2015 - %13:%Jun; edited 1 time in total |
|
markor
Joined: May 07, 2015
|
| Posted:
Jun 01, 2015 - 14:56 |
|
Bghandras, you might disagree but you haven't explained why stalling wouldn't be affected by the rule changes I suggested, whereas I have suggested why it would (and have experienced it in games). Again, I am not saying this would make it impossible to stall, I'm just saying it would make it slightly harder to stall. |
|
|
Harad
Joined: May 11, 2014
|
| Posted:
Jun 01, 2015 - 14:56 |
|
Markor, you make an excellent point. We (probably) want to have a set of rules that maximises the enjoyment for the greatest number of people (although this is debatable, so let's settle for 'more fun' for now).
However, it is more complicated than this. Even if we could identify a set of rules which would be more fun, as soon as we start customising the rules we probably find it harder and harder to attract new players. So whilst we might make it more enjoyable for the existing player base we'd have to accept it may become less appealing for other people who learned the 'proper' rules.
Against this we have the dynamic that some people are turned off the game by the existing rules.
Currently Fumbbl has decided it wishes to stick with the existing rules. This may be due to the above argument or other points of which I am unaware. |
|
|
bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
|
| Posted:
Jun 01, 2015 - 14:57 |
|
| markor wrote: | | I can see a day when I get bored with watching teams grind their way to a 2-1 against me. |
You still have some work to do even if you cant stop such grind. You can hit hard so the opponent lose some players. You can protect your players to try again next half. You can build a 1turning strategy. You can adopt a fouling strategy to eliminate his players. (check my blog and gln for advice, as reversing a 2-1 grind through fouling was my recent pet project.)
If you hit/foul hard, then you may actually force an "early" score, thus get a chance for a 2 turning passing miracle. |
|
|
JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
|
| Posted:
Jun 01, 2015 - 14:57 |
|
| markor wrote: | | I can see a day when I get bored with watching teams grind their way to a 2-1 against me - I'm sure some would be glad to see me and my ilk go, but there are others like you who might actually enjoy the game more if the rules were changed. |
How about you start to work towards winning 2-1 against them?
No one would be glad to see anyone else go. But as much as I'm sure it sounds like a hollow statement, believe me: we've all been there, experiencing bb in a form different than the one we were expecting, and feeling frustrated because our "true" form wasn't good enough or universally appreciated.
The sweet part comes later, when you begin to appreciate the many nuances and grow as a coach. Incidentally, the day you start to embrace the style you hate, is also the day when you realize it's not nearly as cheesy as you expected nor nearly as simple to pull off. |
_________________
 |
|
markor
Joined: May 07, 2015
|
| Posted:
Jun 01, 2015 - 14:59 |
|
I guess this comes down to what kind of game you want to play - I would like to play a more violent, fantasy version of American football/rugby. Others, it seems, like to play something that is basically a pitched battle with some occasional scoring. As a sports fan, I like to see exciting plays, not endless attrition (if I did, I would watch rugby league). |
|
|
JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
|
| Posted:
Jun 01, 2015 - 15:00 |
|
Exciting plays come from skill, not dice.
Forcing people to pass/catch increases the luck influence in every game, thus making the game less interesting, not more. |
_________________
|
|
markor
Joined: May 07, 2015
|
| Posted:
Jun 01, 2015 - 15:01 |
|
Again, I don't have a problem with losing, I have a problem with opponents only ever playing one style against me. |
|
|
Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
|
| Posted:
Jun 01, 2015 - 15:01 |
|
| markor wrote: | | Well, I didn't think anyone would be up for major changes. I think the changes I suggested would have some effect, so that would help the situation somewhat. I would basically just like to have classic passing tds scored against me occasionally. |
Well I did. At the bottom I mentioned that carnage skills offer a way to prevent stalling rather than allow it.
You successfully assessed that Piling On and Guard are tier 1 skills. So they are really effective for offense and defense, of course.
Other than that there is really not anything to add because those skills have just nothing to do with passing.
So, what you're asking me is to explain to you why there isn't a connection between two things where there isn't really a big connection. It's like asking me to proof that god doesn't exist.
Give me some points that need to be true for god to exist and then maybe I can invalidate one of those points. |
|
|
markor
Joined: May 07, 2015
|
| Posted:
Jun 01, 2015 - 15:02 |
|
Again, I don't have a problem with losing, I just want to see teams playing in more than one style. |
|
|
|
|
| |
Blood Bowl 2024 Edit...
Search
