VonManson
Joined: Apr 14, 2016
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Apr 24, 2016 - 10:41 |
 
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So one game in with my blitzer build. I lost which is neither here nor there at this stage. Things learned, I felt like I lacked the ag4 explosive ability to steal the ball easily. I did however feel that with no st2 players to worry about that I had an evenish footing on the board regarding muscle, though no skills will be ouch.
I also found that I was more patient, slowing down the play until I could easily swarm the ball carrier, now I am not saying the catcher team shouldn't play like this its just not something that I have done, and something I clearly need to adapt into my play style. I could also really do with a krox on the catcher team.
Sorry this is kind of becoming a record of my thoughts on the two types of team. |
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thoralf
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
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Apr 24, 2016 - 18:49 |
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| VonManson wrote: | | I felt like I lacked the ag4 explosive ability to steal the ball easily. |
Unless the ball's on the ground, you can't steal much balls with a catcher. When you do, you still have a 7247 dodgeless guy when rookie trying to flee from the middle of a cage. If you do have more than one catcher, the screen will be thin. Et cetera. There's no way to close that loop. This is why I believe there's a debate about how to build Slann - you can't have it all.
This is why BB is fun too. Everyone would rather have 9449 guys than frogs who crash on leaps. But then BB would be drab.
***
On a more general note, I'm starting to feel that the ST3 & AG3 teams are the hardest to play. The strategies are subtle and change from one opponent to the next. |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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Apr 24, 2016 - 19:18 |
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| Purplegoo wrote: |
Heavy bashers aren't that frightening, or aren't any more frightening than at any other time. I just approach the game as a position heavy agility team, albeit one that's not getting away on 2+. Sure, there are times when Frogs die and you have to accelerate matters, but that's true with any other race as well. I'm interested you'd feel that you'd have to resort to rolling plenty of dice, since I associate you with the solid positioning and tactical nous I like to think answers the question of 'what are you going to do if the opposition doesn't go away?'
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I found this bit interesting because slann are all making 3+ rolls (other than the catchers) to do anything. Lacking dodge, lacking block, lacking even MA7 (other than the the catchers).
It made me think of how zons play since they are also 633X like the slann linemen, but they have dodge to make their plays 1/9 instead of 1/3 (1/9 only once per turn).
My experience playing against slann mirrors what grue suggests, especially at lower TVs, you can simply force them to either eat blocks, or to make these 1/3 rolls. Even as the skills roll in, the linemen are still basically doing everything on a naked 3+, and it seems you must rely more on the catchers to save the position when the opposition can force you out of your base defense. Now that's something they can certainly do in a pinch, and so it's not that catcher slann are hopeless, but they seem more reliant on dice than other similar AG based teams. Since they are not an AG based team, and they don't have A access (neither to zons, but they start dodged up).
Again, I don't play slann, my comments are based off of my experiences playing against them. If they roll their leaps and their cage break well, you are in trouble. If they don't, and you can normally control the pitch to make it where they do have to do this at some point, then they get rolled over.
Maybe the argument is the krox saves them, or should save them, but in my experience the krox is just another dicey opportunity waiting to blow up in your face. |
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oozeboss
Joined: Mar 06, 2016
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May 10, 2016 - 23:46 |
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| VonManson wrote: | | Sorry this is kind of becoming a record of my thoughts on the two types of team. |
Which is the very last thing for which you would need to apologise.
I'm also a recent convert to The True Path of the Frog, so this wonderful and erudite discussion can only be enhanced by the inclusion of your thoughts and observations as you take your first wobbling steps with the most amazing of Blood Bowl races.
Slann appeals to me on several fronts, from my being a ranidaphile long before I discovered Blood Bowl in the 90s, to the glorious and unique visual appeal of something like the new and gobsmackingly brilliant Pedro Ramos sculpts, to the ultimate fact of their being arguably the most complex, fragile & challenging of all Blood Bowl teams for anybody to master.
Threads such as this are an absolute godsend, so kudos to all participants and many thanks to the Original Poster.
Go the Frogs! |
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garyt1
Joined: Mar 12, 2011
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May 12, 2016 - 01:16 |
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When people talk about great skilled up Blitzers do they need ag4 on at least 1? The successful teams all seem to have agile players and my impression with just ag3 there will be struggles ahead.
The catcher build is kind of like a inferior, quirky skaven side while the Blitzer build is a quirky human side. Though I can see a couple of ag4 sidestep leapers will make all the difference. |
_________________
“A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer.” |
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ArthurWynne
Joined: Sep 23, 2015
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May 12, 2016 - 17:09 |
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I recently started a new Slann team, Batroc's Brigade, and I've been very lucky with my linemen: Of the four to level, two have rolled doubles and one has rolled +AG!
Unfortunately the +AG one got a niggling injury (APO from Dead) in the very next game, so maybe I should fire him now? He does have AV 8 and having a 2+ leaper with strength 3 would be really useful, so my instinct is to keep him, but Slann linemen do end up on the ground a lot.
As for the Linemen, I gave one Guard, because leaping Guard is spectacular, but I'm not sure if I should take it on the second one too, or go with HMP for defensive utility and Diving Catch shenanigans. |
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Catalyst32
Joined: Jul 14, 2008
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May 14, 2016 - 17:39 |
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I think there is a 3rd camp for Slann building... the Lineman build. It lets you maximize your rerolls early and develop a few skilled linemen to carry the team while you add rookie positionals. There are still enough Linemen hanging around for LOS duty and the skilled Linemen for the important rolls. Then you can use your rookie Blitzers in the support roles that suit them while you work on getting them skills.
1 Catcher is the 1st add to this build imo after you have a Krox and Maxed rerolls (because rerolls don't die). The st5 Krox can be used at time to turn momentum in a blocking war... he can get a 2 dice that can help you to set up a string of 2 dice. The Catcher can be a retriever and a distributor to help skill the other Linemen and the Blitzers. The Catcher will get his spps on his own. There will be times it is just better to score with the Catcher rather than risk a hand off... but the more he can set up the ag3 guys the better.
As for skill progression... the only thing a typical Slann player need to be very useful is 1 normal skill. The Krox really only needs to have Guard. The Linemen and Blitzers really only need to have Wrestle or Block (I'd say 2 to 1 Wrestle to Block ratio). The Catcher... really doesn't need any skills but Dodge, Sure Hands or either Block or Wrestle would be nice.
Sure.... some DOUBLES and so STATS increases would be GREAT... but 1 skill per player is enough to make the team go.
Rerolls and good positioning are the key imo.
To that end this is another team that can make good use of Pro on a few players (mainly as a 2nd Skill on a few Linemen). These would be the players you use later in the turn after you have lost the Team Reroll. Or these are the players that you use to Leap in for the sack because you could use the Team Reroll on a failed Leap and still have Pro for the failed Block. These are your extra Catchers/Throwers in a pinch. They are your best bets at succeeding when your team needs to Dodge away from Bashers... or to make a Pick Up the Ball roll when you guys with Sure Hands are KO'd our trapped by a Beast of Nurgle. They are the ones that can GFI away more safely. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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May 14, 2016 - 19:08 |
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| ArthurWynne wrote: |
Unfortunately the +AG one got a niggling injury (APO from Dead) in the very next game, so maybe I should fire him now? |
Fire him.
| ArthurWynne wrote: |
As for the Linemen, I gave one Guard, because leaping Guard is spectacular, but I'm not sure if I should take it on the second one too, or go with HMP for defensive utility and Diving Catch shenanigans. |
Why did you take Guard? Mighty Blow would have been better.
Also, an AG 3 leaping Guard is not that spectacular.
| Catalyst32 wrote: |
The Catcher... really doesn't need any skills but Dodge, Sure Hands or either Block or Wrestle would be nice.
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What?!
The Catcher absolutely needs Block, Dodge, Side Step (for safer side line half cages).
I tried the Wrestle, Dodge, Dauntless build as well.
2+ Leap and a potential 1 die Block on the ball carrier with Wrestle is nice. |
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Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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May 14, 2016 - 19:44 |
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For my money, Guard is never a bad selection, and a Linefrog with Guard is a lovely thing. I'm not crazy about 3+ to Leap in and use Guard regularly, but if needs must, it's an option. I don't really play to outbash people with Slann, so I'm not as into MB as Matt.
I'm not super crazy about Wrestle on the Catchers; I think that's the job of a Lino. Strip maybe, but again, that's a Lino skill I think. Sure Hands is oft overlooked on any team, Slann included. A 2+ Leap for a (say) 4+ or 5+ pickup with Sure Hands can be a game changer, and a Sure Hander is always a good thing anyway. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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May 14, 2016 - 20:04 |
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| Purplegoo wrote: | | For my money, Guard is never a bad selection, and a Linefrog with Guard is a lovely thing. I'm not crazy about 3+ to Leap in and use Guard regularly, but if needs must, it's an option. I don't really play to outbash people with Slann, so I'm not as into MB as Matt. |
Never said Guard is bad, but I think that on an AG 3 Linefrog is not as good as Mighty Blow.
Of course, I don't play Slann to outbash people, but every team, even the agile ones like Elves, benefit from having a dedicated player for blitzing.
Every team blitzes, so it's important to maximize the impact of that blitz, especially when playing vs AV 8 and 7 teams.
| Purplegoo wrote: |
I'm not super crazy about Wrestle on the Catchers; I think that's the job of a Lino. Strip maybe, but again, that's a Lino skill I think. |
Let's break down the odds of sacking a ST 3 ball carrier with an AG 3 Lino with Wrestle, 1 die block:
Success percent without team reroll
33.33 %
Success percent with a team reroll
61.11 %
AG 4 Catcher with Wrestle, Dauntless sacking a ST 3 ball carrier, 1 die block:
Success percent without team reroll
34.72 %
Success percent with a team reroll
63.65 %
therefore the Catcher has a higher chance of sacking the ball carrier, he is faster and can reliably dodge before of after the leap. |
Last edited by MattDakka on %b %14, %2016 - %20:%May; edited 5 times in total |
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the_Sage
Joined: Jan 13, 2011
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May 14, 2016 - 20:05 |
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| licker wrote: |
Lacking dodge, lacking block, lacking even MA7 (other than the the catchers).
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They have 8 positionals with MA7 and GA or GAS access, actually.
Both Mb and Guard synergize with skills the linos can't get, and the blitzer can. Mb wants po and ju, but guard wants dodge and sidestep. I prefer to put guard on a linefrog, and make those dedicated blitzes with blitzers. Neither the hitter blitzer nor the marker blitzer will get guard before 51 SPP, so a linefrog who takes it at 6 or 16 SPP is a good, early guard asset. I do like guard on catchers for the 2+ dodge or leap assist. |
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Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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May 14, 2016 - 20:15 |
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Matt:
On Guard and Mighy Blow, it's a playstyle thing. Doubles are precious things; maximising positioning with Slann is, for my money, more important than taking an attrition skill as a generalisation. Of course; I always advocate skills are selected with how the team is evolving at the time, I wouldn't always take one over the other. Part of the skill of team building is being adaptable!
On some maths, yes, thank you, I'm aware of those base numbers. But you're taking one aspect of the whole there and overly focussing on it. Yes, your Dauntless, Wrestle Catcher has a higher chance (just about, not by much) of downing a ball carrier than my Wrestle Linefrog in a singular, isolated dice off. However, that's not all of Blood Bowl. He is also costing you TV, skill space on a very important positional (doubly so if you're not a fan of Blitzers) and you're putting an AV7 player in the line of fire. Wrestle Linefrogs are legion, and that is their strength. I think the better team build has a more global outlook. Knowing the maths is a great thing for a coach to have in his back pocket; knowing when to use them is probably more important.
But as we're learning with Slann, to each his own!  |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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May 14, 2016 - 20:22 |
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Guard on a Catcher is ok because he has MA 7 and AG 4, but an AG 3 Lino can't dodge and leap as reliably.
The problem of Blitzers is that they are terribly overpriced, if you play in the Box you can't afford to bloat your team while you wait for completing the Blitzer skill build, while an early Mighty Blow on a Linefrog can help a lot when playing vs AV 8-7 teams but keeps the TV reasonably low.
@purplegoo:
I supposed you knew the maths, I just provided them to bring a rational argument to the debate, instead of saying "it's better because I think it's better". |
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Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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May 14, 2016 - 20:30 |
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In a tactics and strategy thread?! Heresy! 
Kidding apart, no worries. The maths are one piece of a wider puzzle, and it's never a bad thing to talk numbers. Enjoy! |
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morehouse
Joined: Sep 29, 2005
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May 14, 2016 - 21:17 |
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I recently started mine with 2 blitzers and 2 catchers and haven't lost yet 8 games in. However if I was starting over I would probably favor more catchers and fewer or no blitzers. The main thing you want to use a blitzer for, getting your one hit a turn or going for that leap to the ball, a lino can do just about as well and is far cheaper. The catchers on the other hand are a HUGE help. Having +2 leaps on a tv100 team makes Slann one of the best offensive teams in the game right off the bat. Also at low tv the ball tends to end up on the ground a lot, making the catchers great on defense too. |
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