SzieberthAdam
Joined: Aug 31, 2008
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 Posted:
Jul 31, 2012 - 12:56 |
 
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RNG: http://fumbbl.com/help:FFB_RNG
details: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortuna_%28PRNG%29
Let it do its job, its _random_!
Let the forum staff and the old players to be elitist, since they played here thousands of matches, took part of the site for many years.
Why want a new member be equal with them? Did anyone at year of 5 told the rules of play to the older kids on the playing ground?
Let ego go. |
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garyt1
Joined: Mar 12, 2011
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Jul 31, 2012 - 12:59 |
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A welcome pm (or even email) with some basics such as where to start a team and links to help and java chat would be great for new players. Probably not too difficult to setup. Not sure why it isn't here already. |
Last edited by garyt1 on %b %31, %2012 - %13:%Jul; edited 1 time in total |
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Vesikannu
Joined: Mar 06, 2011
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Jul 31, 2012 - 13:02 |
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| harvestmouse wrote: | That's not the point at all. Java bowl RNG, was always questioned (without much foundation), so Christer went to the trouble of changing it (to have that one questioned as well).
So for the new client, Christer went to more trouble to research and bring a new government backed RNG to FUMBBL.
For this to be then questioned, by new coaches who haven't researched into the RNG, don't have the greatest grasp on game mechanics yet, have played very few games here to have a valued opinion on the subject or have looked at a larger sample of rolls; is in my opinion belittling the work done, and extremely rude. |
How is a new coach supposed to find out about how great the RNG is, though? There's no FAQ, it's not mentioned in the rules or in the help section as far as I can see. The only mention of it outside the forums that I could find is a five year old blog post by Christer, and that's not exactly accessible.
I've seen this page before, but I don't know where to find it. Is it linked from somewhere in the help system, or do you just have to know it exists? |
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SzieberthAdam
Joined: Aug 31, 2008
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Jul 31, 2012 - 13:08 |
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I saw it once, and searched for it in google. |
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garyt1
Joined: Mar 12, 2011
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Jul 31, 2012 - 13:10 |
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There is a search at the bottom right of the main help page. RNG brings up that page as a result. But that search is another thing that could be made more prominent.
Thinking about it, a message like what I mention above would have made my first days on fumbbl much simpler. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Jul 31, 2012 - 13:11 |
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| harvestmouse wrote: | | koadah wrote: | | Mouse, it doesn't have feelings. It's only a piece of software. |
That's not the point at all. Java bowl RNG, was always questioned (without much foundation), so Christer went to the trouble of changing it (to have that one questioned as well).
So for the new client, Christer went to more trouble to research and bring a new government backed RNG to FUMBBL.
For this to be then questioned, by new coaches who haven't researched into the RNG, don't have the greatest grasp on game mechanics yet, have played very few games here to have a valued opinion on the subject or have looked at a larger sample of rolls; is in my opinion belittling the work done, and extremely rude. |
I am also a programmer and really have no clue why it is so rude.
I just cannot imagine getting offended by someone (very politely) questioning software that I didn't write and is apparently considered to be amongst the best available.
I don't know how much time and effort when into researching the RNG but I would imagine that it was not too much compared to building and maintaining the site as a whole. Are we not allowed to question anything?
People who don't know are going to ask. If they're lucky they might learn something.
The questions were nothing at all like the RNG rants they get at Cyanide. Over there the randomness of the RNG is the only ting people do have faith in. 
Some of those guys do deserve a VoodooMike roasting.
| Garion wrote: | | koadah wrote: | | Mouse, it doesn't have feelings. It's only a piece of software. |
tell that to woodstock. |
The Woodstock program is very clever it would be interesting to see the source code. |
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Woodstock
Joined: Dec 11, 2004
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Jul 31, 2012 - 13:27 |
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| koadah wrote: | | I just cannot imagine getting offended by someone (very politely) questioning software that I didn't write and is apparently considered to be amongst the best available. |
But that is the issue... Most of those threads aren't even questioning the software. They make a statement that the RNG is flawed and that it would never happen in real life.
The problem is not the subject, but with what mindset people come here and if they try to adept. If they are arrogant, they get hammered, if they are polite, they get help. It is something that is pretty normal out there in the real world if you look at animals, it is in our nature. |
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dode74
Joined: Aug 14, 2009
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Jul 31, 2012 - 13:32 |
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| WhatBall wrote: | Thanks for the input Dode.
So the real question is, what would it take for you to move here full-time and suggest to your entire FOL to do the same? Would a client that was double-sized with revamped icons do it? Would it also need to be rotatable? Is there more?
There are a lot of icons to do, but if there is demand and we can work out some ideas that have been tossed between Kalimar, Christer and myself, I would be willing to redo the icon set to facilitate larger fields. |
I'd be happy to move here full-time if my league did (OCC, not FOL) already - the changes I mentioned would simply improve an already-better client for me. I doubt that the members of my league all want the same from their online version as I do though, so I wouldn't ask them to do so. I do know that some of them play here as well though, so I suspect that those would be happy whichever client was used.
I doubt FOL could ever move here - it's simply the cyanide-pretty version of B, of a similar size (~160 games a day), which I don't have the tools to police as effectively. If Cyanide ever dump the servers entirely then this is where I'll be suggesting the FOL players come.
As for questioning the RNG being rude, I'm with Koadah. Asking questions is often the only way to get an answer when the site itself isn't particularly intuitive - the search box on the help page, for example, is hidden in the bottom corner. Having it top and centre, of even on the right like Wikipedia (a site I doubt many here are unfamiliar with) would facilitate its use. The same is true of the forum - upgrading to php3 can't be that hard (I moved from php3 to myBB for the FOL boards and it was a doddle) and would provide an interface with which more people are familiar, and therefore more likely to be able to find and use the functions such as the search.
Certainly there are higher priorities, especially for those familiar with the forums and client already, but for those unfamiliar with the current setup it can be offputting. |
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zakatan
Joined: May 17, 2008
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Jul 31, 2012 - 13:37 |
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Added the RNG explaination in the help section, under FUMBBL Info -> Advanced site use -> About Numbers
http://fumbbl.com/help:UsingSite
The help section is a wiki and liking is not so difficult. Anyone can edit or link intersting stuff. And i belive this information is worth being there. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Jul 31, 2012 - 13:41 |
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| Vesikannu wrote: |
I've seen this page before, but I don't know where to find it. Is it linked from somewhere in the help system, or do you just have to know it exists? |
took me all of 2 clicks to find it.
I didn't know this existed either. Its under Help then advanced site use.
Frankly people just don't bother reading the help section. Its not perfect. But it is pretty darn good, and contains all the info you could ever wish for if people bothered to read it.
The main problem is gamers these days are just-
1 - lazy: most computer games don't require people to read the rules on account of them being so easy.
2- Games are easy - these days all computer games are soo dumbed down and so easy I can more often than not try a game on the hardest difficulty straight out of the box and walk through it with relative ease. People aren't used to starting a new game and getting their ass handed to them for the first 20 matches they played. Personally I think the best way this could be addressed is by turning academy in to a division where people play against the Grod Bot, using those prefixed teams people created earlier this year. I'd imagine the Grod bot could be converted for this use and would be very beneficial to the modern gamer who is used to winning and would break people in more gently. Not sure how much work would be required to convert the grod bot from the client it was created on but i think this is definitely worth pursuing. Heck its AI is probably already better than cyanides.
I understand HMs frustration tbh because that was sooooooooo easy to find but people are quicker to start throwing muck about rather than keeping them self informed. Though I think that is turning into a global truth about everything in this horrible age we live tbh but that's for another discussion |
Last edited by Garion on %b %31, %2012 - %13:%Jul; edited 1 time in total |
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zakatan
Joined: May 17, 2008
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Jul 31, 2012 - 13:42 |
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| Garion wrote: | | Vesikannu wrote: |
I've seen this page before, but I don't know where to find it. Is it linked from somewhere in the help system, or do you just have to know it exists? |
took me all of 2 clicks to find it.
I didn't know this existed either. Its under Help then advanced site use. |
Because i put it there 5 minutes ago |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Jul 31, 2012 - 13:44 |
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was typing while you posted  |
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dode74
Joined: Aug 14, 2009
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Jul 31, 2012 - 13:47 |
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| Garion wrote: | | I understand HMs frustration tbh because that was sooooooooo easy to find but people are quicker to start throwing muck about rather than keeping them self informed. Though I think that is turning into a global truth about everything in this horrible age we live tbh but that's for another discussion |
True, but you either move with the times or die out. The game itself is hard enough for a novice, making the site hard to use (compared to others) compounds things. |
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plasmoid
Joined: Nov 03, 2009
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Jul 31, 2012 - 13:52 |
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I think Whitmore makes a lot of sense.
I also think Garyt1 is spot on about an automated introduction PM.
A newb forum - can't remember who suggested it - might also be a good place for newbs to ask 'dumb' questions without getting flamed.
Most interestingly I belive this thread expresses both the will to grow, and the (mutually exclusive?) will to be an old-boys-club. Until everyone agress where it is you want the site to go, it only takes a few determined people to run off some of the more sensitive newbs. Better off without those newbs? IMO that's the question.
Cheers
Martin |
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plasmoid
Joined: Nov 03, 2009
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Jul 31, 2012 - 13:54 |
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Maybe the newb forum could have a few floaty/sticky threads at the top, about some of the FAQs - like the RNG.
Probably the most obvious in your face place to find them.
Because, as Garion said, people are indeed lazy. |
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