FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

harvestmouse

Joined: May 13, 2007

Posted: Jan 20, 2014 - 18:34

cthol wrote:

Stuff

I think I disagreed with everyone of your points.

Admins do not make the rules, in a lot of cases they may not even agree with the rules. However they give up their free time to implement them. Then saying it's their duty to explain why these rules is implemented smells IMO.

Again, I really think a lot of people do not get this site. This isn't Xboxlive, this isn't a service. We are all guests, and should behave like guests. If we start to leave, Christer will look at those reasons, and change things. As it is though, Christer's rules and site, are here not for him, but what he believes are our best interests. It would be nice, if as a group, we would trust him that he has our best interests at heart.

Remember, for the progressive environment, there are some serious loopholes. If everybody set out to break this game, you would break this game. That's an achievement, but who gains from it? Nobody. You would lose a site, that caters for the fans, and just that. No money is needed, no advertising, no hidden agendas. Come guys, be responsible and accept that, and try to build on it, rather than going all out to find holes in the foundation.

FUMBBL plays offical CRP (but that may change) when the client starts. However outside of this, 'official' rules are not clear cut. Also you have to accept that CRP rules are certainly aimed at TT gaming. Computer based gaming, is slightly different and needs some house ruling for out of game situations.

Mr_Foulscumm

Joined: Mar 05, 2005

Posted: Jan 20, 2014 - 18:36

Synn wrote:

Here is my strategy in managing journeymen:

The 3-11

3: This is how many players you have to place on the LoS. I am completely indifferent as to whether these players have loner or not as I expect them to die on defense or to mark up scary things (and die) on offense. So I am fine in having three JM to serve these roles. If I have less than 8 real players... I will buy in order to have 8 (so I can put a real player in the backfield for skilling).

11: Minimum amount of players right? Yes, but this also means if I am short handed and have as many positionals as I want... I am only interested in buying linos if it takes me PAST 11 players. This means that if I have 8 real players, I will not buy again until I have enough to jump to 12 (although see the disclaimer below to see a notable exception).

Now let's look at an example involving my wood elves:

I currently have 9 players and 80k in the bank. I don't need any positionals at all so I would rather aim to buy linos. Looking at the 3-11 rule above, I know I will not buy any players since I have less than 4 JM and I don't have enough money to buy the 3 linos that would take me above 11 players.

Now for an important disclaimer with my viewpoint:

- If a JM gets spps, I want to buy them. That could cause me to buy a 10th player prematurely.

__Synn
**Note this is just my stance and does not represent any form of hard rule or policy. I have never had any issues with admins on the usage of JM.

This is pretty much exactly how I run my Elf teams as well.

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PainState

Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Posted: Jan 20, 2014 - 18:49

Harvestmouse wrote:

Same warning to you. You are misquoting Christer. I will not accept this. Do it again, and you won't be posting on the forums. There is no debating this.

Here is his post

Christer wrote: wrote:

If you have 9 permanent players on your team, you can choose to take 0, 1 or 2 journeymen into your next match (or more if you have MNG players). In the short term, it's ok to not take the journeymen you are allowed if you feel that improves your chances to rebuild the team properly.

Striving towards 11 players does not mean that you have to do it immediately. The idea is that you can save gold so you can buy a positional for example instead of a lineman.

Dumping gold to not be able to afford buying players is effectively simply a way to try to circumvent the rule and is not a way to actually try to rebuild the team in an intelligent manner.

Basically, ask yourself if you're trying to get the team back to 11 players relatively soon. If the answer is "no", you are likely about to violate the rule.

This was posted on July 10th, 2013 by Harverstmouse in a locked thread. Iam only posting this because it talks about Christers "view" on what is J-man abuse and so forth. These are the guidelines that Christer posted.

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Mr_Foulscumm

Joined: Mar 05, 2005

Posted: Jan 20, 2014 - 18:57

harvestmouse wrote:

If we start to leave, Christer will look at those reasons, and change things. As it is though, Christer's rules and site, are here not for him, but what he believes are our best interests. It would be nice, if as a group, we would trust him that he has our best interests at heart.

Are you really saying that people shouldn't voice their opinions and just leave instead? Wouldn't this be a great disservice to all the hard work that has been done around the site for our enjoyment?

Not everyone that puts forth a suggestion or idea is doing so to "break the game" or "kill the site".

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harvestmouse

Joined: May 13, 2007

Posted: Jan 20, 2014 - 19:14

Certainly not, Mr F. What I'm suggesting is take a step back and have a look at the situation. Are you suggesting something because you think it will be better for the site or for your chances of winning?

personally I think there's a lot that could improve this site, and I encourage everyone to voice their 'constructive' views on improving the site. I'm pretty sure Christer would encourage you too.

What I'm say is, let's behave like adults. We all want the same thing, a top notch site. Just stop poking at holes, or moaning about rules you dislike. It's not productive.

Look, this is your site. You can make it better, you can make it worse by the decisions and comments you make. I just find it kamikaze to complain about things that are here to make the overall experience better for the majority.

JackassRampant

Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Posted: Jan 20, 2014 - 20:17

In this case, I, the OP, asked because I have a nifty team theme that I wasn't sure was or was not within the site rules, and I wanted to make sure it was okay. Did it have anything to do with improving my win%? No. In fact, quite the opposite: it had to do with reducing the amount of wait time I had on Ranked by playing a team that other coaches wanted to play against, and that would not artificially deflate my win rate like Halflings would have. It's been working, and when someone raised a rules question about a very similar construct, I just felt I had to be sure what I was doing was kosher.

Please stop blindly attributing awful motives to innocuous questions.

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harvestmouse

Joined: May 13, 2007

Posted: Jan 20, 2014 - 20:36

JackassRampant wrote:

In this case, I, the OP, asked because I have a nifty team theme that I wasn't sure was or was not within the site rules, and I wanted to make sure it was okay. Did it have anything to do with improving my win%? No. In fact, quite the opposite: it had to do with reducing the amount of wait time I had on Ranked by playing a team that other coaches wanted to play against, and that would not artificially deflate my win rate like Halflings would have. It's been working, and when someone raised a rules question about a very similar construct, I just felt I had to be sure what I was doing was kosher.

Please stop blindly attributing awful motives to innocuous questions.

Well.....I don't think I have kept on at you. I've been replying to other members. I certainly don't think you are a liar, if you gave me your word on something, I'd trust you enough that you were telling the truth, as you see it. In short you're a nice guy.

I do think though that you judgement in some situations may not be the best for the game or the site. I believe winning is important to you, and the spirit of the game is somewhat lost to you.

I wanted to run a team of Journey Men, where all my money was spent to hire a star player. The fluff was that the manager (me) was in love with the star player and spent no money on the team, and all the money on the star.

Unfortunately, due to how rules are abused I was unable to run the team in a competitive division, and I ran it league. Even there though I changed the theme slightly (removing the JMs) as it's now such a controversial subject, I decided against using them.

This is a shame, it was a great theme and fun for everyone, but I personally felt uncomfortable using it in League even though it would have been legal. That's not to say you shouldn't, so....if you do have an amusing theme using JMs, I suggest keeping it to League, it shouldn't cause any trouble there.

Chainsaw

Joined: Aug 31, 2005

Posted: Jan 20, 2014 - 20:46

Let's face it. We're all loners to 1 degree or another otherwise we wouldn't be playing at imagination time with fantasy pixels.

*cries*

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CastleMan

Joined: Apr 26, 2013

Posted: Jan 20, 2014 - 21:06

thanks saw. now I am sad Sad

Retro21

Joined: Jun 17, 2011

Posted: Jan 20, 2014 - 21:23

HM moaning about a forum being used for discussion? Sad

Time for a break from the site dude.

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koadah

Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Posted: Jan 20, 2014 - 21:33

harvestmouse wrote:

Look, this is your site. You can make it better, you can make it worse by the decisions and comments you make. I just find it kamikaze to complain about things that are here to make the overall experience better for the majority.

See, there is the point. People don't believe it is better. Hence the continual moaning.

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Frankenstein

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Jan 20, 2014 - 21:34

harvestmouse wrote:

Unfortunately, due to how rules are abused ...

Do you know of any incidents were cash hoarding combined with excessive use of journeymen had a significant game-breaking impact?

Just wondering.

cthol

Joined: Nov 10, 2003

Posted: Jan 20, 2014 - 21:49

harvestmouse wrote:

cthol wrote:

Stuff

I think I disagreed with everyone of your points.

Admins do not make the rules, in a lot of cases they may not even agree with the rules. However they give up their free time to implement them. Then saying it's their duty to explain why these rules is implemented smells IMO.

Again, I really think a lot of people do not get this site. This isn't Xboxlive, this isn't a service. We are all guests, and should behave like guests. If we start to leave, Christer will look at those reasons, and change things. As it is though, Christer's rules and site, are here not for him, but what he believes are our best interests. It would be nice, if as a group, we would trust him that he has our best interests at heart.

Remember, for the progressive environment, there are some serious loopholes. If everybody set out to break this game, you would break this game. That's an achievement, but who gains from it? Nobody. You would lose a site, that caters for the fans, and just that. No money is needed, no advertising, no hidden agendas. Come guys, be responsible and accept that, and try to build on it, rather than going all out to find holes in the foundation.

FUMBBL plays offical CRP (but that may change) when the client starts. However outside of this, 'official' rules are not clear cut. Also you have to accept that CRP rules are certainly aimed at TT gaming. Computer based gaming, is slightly different and needs some house ruling for out of game situations.

Augh, this is just really hard to take. I get that this is not a subscription service, really I do. But to keep on about how Fumbbl is a benign democracy and we all have to to accept Christer's dictats without question does everyone a disservice. I don't see Christer putting in a rule that says "never discuss the rules" or "any discussion or questioning of the rules is banned". I don't speak for him, (and I might point out, neither do you) but I don't imagine he's so insecure as to want to veto all discussion or thought about the site.

And I never said the admins made or agreed with the rules. But I think it's reasonable to think they might have some better idea than the rest of us plebs about the thinking behind the rules or their implementation.

Seriously, people asking about how a rule reads, or why it's there at all, or whether it achieves what it set out to, is not going to somehow cause Fumbbl to implode. But stamping people down for asking questions or looking for clarity might very well do. Any community needs open discussion and participation to thrive, or it will stagnate. Fumbbl is no different.

JackassRampant

Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Posted: Jan 20, 2014 - 21:49

I see what you mean, Mouse. Definitely, a team of no actual rostered players would not be legal in Ranked. And to be sure, my all-Journeymen team went out of its way to avoid creating any scenario like that, cutting players two or three at a time and replacing them after the next game. I don't think the idea of an all-lino team inherently violates the spirit of either BB, FUMBBL, or Ranked: it's just one more novel variant and the fact that it's now viable in TV-driven formats is really something worth celebrating. You've always been able to decide how many linemen you want: there's a reason they're listed 0-16.

As a competitive strategy, it's pretty neutral: RA are 25-10-8 (69.7%), statistically similar to my combined other [R] Human teams' record of 63-23-28 (65.3%), the margin easily being explained by coaching development, in that RA games are also the bulk of my recent [R] Human games. That and Ogres are not good for your W%. And it really puts weight on your team's statty players and RA got lucky with stats.

I also think inducement-themed teams are okay if managed right. There's absolutely no reason you can't make a team of all linemen and apply them to a RRR with the intent to get a key inducement (including a star player). There's also no reason you can't play a team up to the point where they can play up far enough to induce a particular star, and then do so regularly. It's nobody's business but yours if you think Ripper is way more than 10k better than a Wizard and a Bribe, and you greenlight oppos who are up 260k more readily than you'd play up, say, 180k. Heck, you can take those over favorable matches if you believe you're remaining competitive in so doing. In fact, I'd argue that mid-TV Skaven teams would do a lot better playing way up in TV than playing the equal-value midrange teams whose greenlights they actually take, because they get much better mileage out of inducements than most teams do. Ditto Dorfs playing up precisely 60k: good drive control plus Boomer is just a ton of fun.

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harvestmouse

Joined: May 13, 2007

Posted: Jan 20, 2014 - 21:52

Picking a paragraph and picking fault out of it, without looking at the overall context is the new black.

Frank: I don't even want to waste my time thinking about such a case, there probably are some, but it's irrelevant.

And we're now at the point of going around in circles with guys like Retro, Stanley and Frank who have a passionate dislike for harvestmouse going off topic just to get in a few sucker punches. My points been made, and I tip my hat. All yours guys.