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Gutter vs Passer
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Rat_Salat



Joined: Apr 22, 2011
Post   Posted: May 02, 2015 - 18:34 Reply with quote Back to top
On my latest Skaven team, Chuck has just taken his second skill... block. He's a pretty serviceable player, especially at the lower TV levels. The team did need another block/wrestle guy, and his leader reroll is obviously pretty handy.

It is telling, however that in ten games he has completed 2 passes and created one casualty. Of those two completions, at least one was in garbage time, and the other one might have been too, for all I know. This, on a team with TWO gutter runners.

I don't trust him to handle the ball. 8/9 isn't good enough, and I am not prepared to invest skills improving those odds (Extra Arms, Accurate) on a 7/3/3/7 chassis. I took block on a 6,4 here because I just don't see the point making him any better when I could hire a gutter who is arguably a better player as a rookie, than the thrower with 4 skills.
ErobererZim



Joined: Dec 19, 2009
Post   Posted: May 02, 2015 - 19:01 Reply with quote Back to top
@licker
I had a couble of Throwers but there never had a so long life that there gaint so much skill to make them well, and I think a 2+ Pick Up incl. with 2+Dodges away from the Opponent and much faster as Throwers make Gutters to better Balldudes as Thrower for me. Yes the GREAT problem is the STR2 of them, thats why I use my AG4 Linos as Carrier. Yes when I had an +AG Thrower I would use em but I never had one.

For me, is forcing an MiceThower to get Skills to hard and risky as using Easy Going with AG4 Guys. I play to win and offer my best Players for that. I play only on the Ball, and there is for me a Thrower not realy needed.
Wreckage



Joined: Aug 15, 2004
Post   Posted: May 02, 2015 - 19:04 Reply with quote Back to top
I think Lickers view is just biased because he does have a pretty amazing ag4 rat thrower...
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009
Post   Posted: May 02, 2015 - 19:28 Reply with quote Back to top
Wreckage wrote:
I think Lickers view is just biased because he does have a pretty amazing ag4 rat thrower...


If you check the history of that team you realize I didn't always have him, but I always had a thrower. Of course I ran with only 3 gutters for large chunks of time as well, but that was more for TV optimization as I kept on losing my blitzers and rebuilding a rookie blitzer at higher TVs was very difficult.

It's much easier to skill a gutter (or thrower with some pass farming when you have a game that allows it) than it is to skill a blitzer.

Here are the throwers I've had before the current... (1st number is games played)

Santa Fe Thrower 5 8 Sure Hands, Pass, Accurate m, -ma
Velarde Thrower 25 52 Sure Hands, Pass, Accurate, Leader, Block, Kick d, r
Conchas Thrower 48 45 Sure Hands, Pass, Accurate, Block, Leader m, m, m, d
Santa Fe 2 Thrower 1 0 Sure Hands, Pass

And the current...

Santa Fe 3 Thrower 16 Pass, Sure Hands, Block, +AG, Dodge

As you can see, other than a couple of them, my throwers have lived pretty long, and all of the 1st 3 (SF2 died his 1st game) never rolled a double or stat. Yet they were highly effective with the skills they do have.

SF3 is clearly a 'better' player than any of them. Dodge and +AG on your ball retriever? Yeah, now he is the perfect 'carrier' as you and others would define it. Hell, as I'd define it too, except I don't use him as a carrier, other than when circumstances dictate. His job is to retrieve the ball, the rest of the team screens him, or tries to set up the offense (assuming a drive with turns to kill). But this was the same use as any of my throwers. SF3 is only better now really because he gives me a nice player who 'trails' the offense without the ball, and in case the ball does pop loose, he's as good as any elf at getting in and out of a tackle zone to retrieve it.

Usually you'd do that with a gutter right? And sometimes I do as well, it's all situational based off of the position.

But I've only had 16 games of this guy and most of them he was not +AG and Dodge. Meanwhile my 2 longest lived throwers account for 73 games! (yes this is R, and I pick, sue me :p) Granted, I did take accurate on them, but more for faster skilling than anything else, though it has the obvious advantage when you do pass. After that it's Block/Leader/Kick, all useful skills you want somewhere.

And honestly, my throwers don't get targeted much, I don't have to protect them (though they may get rule of 5 set up protection depending on opponent), no one is wasting their time trying to hit them when they need to kill strip balling or one turning or cpombing rats...

So there's that too... Everyone always talks as though the thrower is a liability because he gets 'targeted'. That's crap, and I think you know it. It's like saying a War Dancer is a liability because he gets targeted. Or a +ST catcher, or whatever you good and useful player is.

Believe me, a thrower who doesn't roll anything other than regulars isn't getting singled out for anything. Sure he'll draw the few extra blocks over the course of his career, just because he is more skills than a line rat, but meh, those situations are usually in crapped up games anyway, most of the time they will see maybe one extra blitz per match, and it's not always going to be from the 'killer' because the 'killer' is usually hunting your gutters.
PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007
Post   Posted: May 02, 2015 - 19:29 Reply with quote Back to top
Wreckage wrote:
I think Lickers view is just biased because he does have a pretty amazing ag4 rat thrower...


Well, it is just like Human Throwers. Most coaches it seems would prefer a AG4 ball handler, which is totally understandable.

So, here is the rub. Are you willing to cycle through skaven throwers/human throwers until you pop a AG4 version. You hire two, skill them to 16+SPP and if they do not pop the +AG you fire and start again or just turn them into Linemen until they die.

Now, I understand some coaches not wanting to take that approach. Not saying you should.

But

you never know, you could pop +AG on TWO throwers like the Buccaneers B team has. Now we got some +AG thrower home cooking going on.

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Last edited by PainState on %b %02, %2015 - %19:%May; edited 1 time in total
ErobererZim



Joined: Dec 19, 2009
Post   Posted: May 02, 2015 - 19:38 Reply with quote Back to top
A Thrower is Targeted when he is Highskilled or having the Ball, and most of these have no Blodge so easy Frags for the Pombers, or Blitzers. or when he had AG3 marking with a Diving Tackler and he has a couble of problems.
Rat_Salat



Joined: Apr 22, 2011
Post   Posted: May 02, 2015 - 19:45 Reply with quote Back to top
I wish I could pull up Licker's threads on the wood elf thrower right about now.

WE Thrower: 7/3/4/7 Pass, Sure Hands = 110tv @ 6spp
SK Thrower: 7/3/4/7 Pass, Sure Hands = 110tv @ 6spp

The big difference here is of course GPA access vs GP access, and the fact that one requires an 11 and the other a single. Obviously the WE thrower is quite a bit better.

They are, however... both nice players and it is true that if you don't take a thrower, you'll never have an +AG one. Unfortunately, +AG without dodge isn't quite as good, and as the above post correctly observed, AV7 players without blodge, but with stat increases are absolute prime fodder for blitzes.


Last edited by Rat_Salat on %b %02, %2015 - %19:%May; edited 1 time in total
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009
Post   Posted: May 02, 2015 - 19:46 Reply with quote Back to top
Eh...

I don't see that so much.

I mean, if they are targeting my thrower over my blitzers or gutters good.
PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007
Post   Posted: May 02, 2015 - 19:49 Reply with quote Back to top
Rat_Salat wrote:
Unfortunately, +AG without dodge isn't quite as good, and as the above post correctly observed, AV7 players without blodge, but with stat increases are absolute prime fodder for blitzes.


Cant help myself on this one.

@Rat

Did you not call me, I will paraphrase, "A cheese dog, no good for nothing, TPOMB whore." In another thread?

So, how does blodge help you out IF Iam what you say Iam?

Surprised Shocked Very Happy

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Rat_Salat



Joined: Apr 22, 2011
Post   Posted: May 02, 2015 - 20:24 Reply with quote Back to top
There's a 21 page thread for you to troll me in Painstate. Can we not crap up Wreckage's thread with this?
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013
Post   Posted: May 02, 2015 - 20:30 Reply with quote Back to top
licker wrote:
Eh...

I don't see that so much.

I mean, if they are targeting my thrower over my blitzers or gutters good.


Indeed. I'd always rather have my Throwers with Wrackle targeted by pomb than Storm Vermin or *shudder* Gutter Runners, if I can help it.
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009
Post   Posted: May 02, 2015 - 20:34 Reply with quote Back to top
Rat_Salat wrote:
I wish I could pull up Licker's threads on the wood elf thrower right about now.

WE Thrower: 7/3/4/7 Pass, Sure Hands = 110tv @ 6spp
SK Thrower: 7/3/4/7 Pass, Sure Hands = 110tv @ 6spp

The big difference here is of course GPA access vs GP access, and the fact that one requires an 11 and the other a single. Obviously the WE thrower is quite a bit better.

They are, however... both nice players and it is true that if you don't take a thrower, you'll never have an +AG one. Unfortunately, +AG without dodge isn't quite as good, and as the above post correctly observed, AV7 players without blodge, but with stat increases are absolute prime fodder for blitzes.


I thought I made the distinction pretty clear already.

WE (and other elfs) have players with the catch skill.

Skaven do not.

The passing game is best when you don't have to use it, when you do, you want at least one side to have a free rr skill.

No one is advocating taking catch early on a gutter runner. Some wouldn't advocate taking it at all. Thus, there is value in the thrower for having pass.

Beyond the fact that it's a player who STARTS with sure hands, which is the 2nd most important skill in BB after block in my opinion.

Anyway, what elf roster doesn't come with pass or catch at all? And how to coaches of that team tell everyone to play it?

Most of the rest of this thread has now degenerated into pixel huggers hugging pixels so I'm not sure what further value there can be.
PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007
Post   Posted: May 02, 2015 - 20:34 Reply with quote Back to top
Rat_Salat wrote:
There's a 21 page thread for you to troll me in Painstate. Can we not crap up Wreckage's thread with this?


Man, you do not know how to take a joke. Sad

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mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013
Post   Posted: May 02, 2015 - 20:37 Reply with quote Back to top
Rat_Salat wrote:
I wish I could pull up Licker's threads on the wood elf thrower right about now.

WE Thrower: 7/3/4/7 Pass, Sure Hands = 110tv @ 6spp
SK Thrower: 7/3/4/7 Pass, Sure Hands = 110tv @ 6spp

The big difference here is of course GPA access vs GP access, and the fact that one requires an 11 and the other a single. Obviously the WE thrower is quite a bit better.

They are, however... both nice players and it is true that if you don't take a thrower, you'll never have an +AG one. Unfortunately, +AG without dodge isn't quite as good, and as the above post correctly observed, AV7 players without blodge, but with stat increases are absolute prime fodder for blitzes.


Just get lucky
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