sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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 Posted:
Sep 13, 2006 - 11:32 |
 
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ok since I won't be able to make comments on 5 full page, I will multi-post:
most of page one comments are not good at all. It's like:
ohhh he got that more, it's great, he got that less, it sucks.
pffffff, useless.
Unless some obvious evidences, like ogres became worser, those comments lacks of thinking.
If you don't take in account skills and stuff you just CAN'T evaluate the changes on the team.
A few exemple: how will dwarves perform against wrestle teams, strip ballers? Sure hand don't protect anymore from ball stripping and cage may collapse by himself.
Khemrians mummys lost gen access. What are the safety skills for them? Juggernaut? do you usually blitz with mummys? what about the fact that nearly every skill categorie is accessible on doubles. What about SF? You can't safety dodge anymore, true! But not beeing pushed on a simple skill may be a Huge improvement. dauntless may become more common, even if nerfed. Will it hinder Khemris?
None of those questions are even lightely taken in account. Just the squad.
Those comments sucks. |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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| Posted:
Sep 13, 2006 - 11:33 |
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| Grammaticus wrote: | | I don't know if I agree that chaos are a lot worse.. Sure, mutations aren't nearly as good, but things like extra arms aren't bad, and claw/mb/po on normal rolls is still pretty monstrous.. |
I think I soon start a thread about chaos. Main problem is: won't they be stopped by spiralling expenses BEFORE reaching that powerlevel! |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 13, 2006 - 11:47 |
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| momfreeek wrote: | | I think you're all too fixated on this whole "Claw, Kill" chaos thing. Beastmen now have a huge range of skills to choose from. |
On the contrary. What compensates for Chaos' weakness in LRB 4.0 is that they have a (small) range of very powerful mutations: Big Hand, Foul Appearance and Tentacles, not just the killer skills of Claw and RSC. This along with universal S access makes for a team that grows stronger and stronger as it develops (from a poor start).
I don't think anyone is disputing that when you get up into three/four-skill combo territory, some of the 5.0 mutations could serve very nicely to top off a specialist player. But that alone isn't going to make Chaos competitive. Especially when many other teams (which actually start with skills) can make players who are almost as good a little earlier, and several teams (with doubles M access) can make players with exactly the same combo with just one double.
| Composer99 wrote: | | The point is not that skaven or chaos dwarves can also get claw/mighty blow/piling on or just MB/PO (with the CD's having block and tackle to boot), it's that chaos will almost invariably have more such players. |
I think fen has already replied to this.
| fen wrote: | | Sadly because of the increased on pitch violence (thanks in part to Piling On) Beastmen & Minotaurs die like crazy. I struggled with all three teams early on as I found it very difficult to get up to 14 players, and losing skilled beastmen hurts. |
Yes, if you were given the time to build your dream team of Claw/MB/PO Beastmen, it could be quite formidable. But unless you are the only competent coach in your league, that's not going to happen. Your skilled beasts will be targetted by the MB/PO players that <i>every single team</i> (except elves) will have, and the ones skilling up to be killers will be targetted especially.
Furthermore, in a battle between your Claw/MB/PO and someone else's plain MB/PO, the addition of Claw just isn't enough to give you a clear edge, because your beasts' AV is only 8. Not to mention that your opponent's third skill might be Fend (to cancel your Piling On), which you can't afford. I would speculate (and perhaps fen can confirm or refute this) that many or most <i>Human</i> teams would be able to outbash most Chaos in 5.0.
Actually, the one thing I think could be quite powerful for Chaos (believe it or not) is their Minotaur, given that it now has normal M access.
Starting the team off, get a Minotaur and blitz with it almost exclusively, always trying to get three dice, of course, to get the full value out of its Frenzy, Horns and MB. Yes, you will lose a lot of blitzes to Wild Animal, but you will also cause a huge number of casualties. Juggernaut and Claw can be obtained as the first two normal skills, to both up the casualty rate and reduce the turnover rate. Tentacles can also be added, along with Stand Firm.
Of course, in the end this is still just a fragile Minotaur, and soon enough its life will be snuffed out however you skill it up. But during its brief lifespan I think it has the potential to be a real terror on the pitch - but only if you're willing to give up a lot of blitzes to it. However, a short-lived phenomenon like this, even if it dominates a few matches, would not be enough to make the Chaos team as a whole a powerful force. |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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| Posted:
Sep 13, 2006 - 11:51 |
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| mighty_scoop wrote: | | Fama wrote: |
Ahh, but don't forget the new PO - it will increase cas, and when the apo doesn't leave the player on the pitch anymore, snowball effect might bring in even more cas. |
True, the new PO will definatly increasy the cas rate ... but, as i said, there is now only one injury roll modification ... mb ... and i would say :
new po <-> loss of rsc = less cas.
with the snowball effect you could be right ... but i expect all in all less cas, so i guess the snowball effect will be reduced to some few games (great luck will tip the scales here)
(additional you now may have 3 apo in some few games ... so with a great portion of luck, 3 cased player will return to the field at the next kick-off) |
Claw+PO+MB means:
35.4% of cas and 55.3% of KO or more (well the 35.4% is calculated on the idea that YOU REALLY REALLY want to cas). But more than 1 time out of two, you send a player Off-Pitch.
3 skills needed.
3 of such player and you may do in average 1cas a game.
Better make good use of your 3 apos.... |
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Tophat
Joined: Jun 01, 2006
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| Posted:
Sep 13, 2006 - 11:51 |
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okay so a chaos team can now have 7-8 bash players and then on top maybe
31spps( 1 double) beastman 1 horns ,Very long legs ,strip ball ,leap (double)
16spps beastmn 2 horns ,big hand ,extra arms .
beastman 1 runs in jumps the cage(3+ with new VLL) and as a blitz(horns) will likely get a one dice on the ball handler or two dice if the cage is short of guarders ,hopefully this will give you the strip ball (next skill can get wrestle to increase your chances of getting the ball out ) .
The ball bounces loose , in comes the second beastman and picks the ball up and hands off to a waiting player , next skill at 31 maybe twoheads to help you get the ball safe and secure .
The rest of your team can still be tooled up with block , guards ,mighty blow ,piling on , tentacles ,etc to give you a tough edge , but you also if creative create some elfball talents .
Its alos important how TV is calculated , a player with 2 double skills will be as expensive as a player with 3 standard skills , so the fact these are single skills is more important in lrb5 than in lrb4 ,where you pay the same (sliding scale ) for skills regardless of what you roll . |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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| Posted:
Sep 13, 2006 - 11:54 |
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| pac wrote: | I completely agree with deathgerbil on the Chaos question. Doubles access on CDs means that you don't even have to make a Chaos team to make 'ultimate' killer players. In fact, CD Blockers will probably get to MB/Claw/PO much more quickly and easily as they start with Block (and Tackle).
If Chaos were the only team with M access on normal rolls, they might still have a niche. But Rotters have snuck in there too.
@Optihut: The difference between Chaos and Vamps/Stunties/etc is that (we are told) Chaos are not <i>designed</i> to be a weaker team (as those other teams are). More challenging, perhaps; and only meant for a more experienced coach. But not designed to be weak.
I'd add an alternative Lineman position to the Chaos roster. A Chaos Marauder, something like 6 3 3 7 GM 40K. This would (in theory!) be a player cheap enough to be worth taking some of the other (ball-handling) mutations on. I'm not sure how useful it would actually be … But it would be an addition that could be made without breaking the Chaos team tradition of having only skilless starting players and no positionals as such. |
good post! I ll come back to that in my future thread |
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z3d
Joined: Apr 16, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 13, 2006 - 11:58 |
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everyone talks about how claw+MB is better then the old claw.
its two skill instead of one and better against AV9 only - 21 player type if i'm right.
against av8 claw+mb is the same as the old claw but it's two skill
against av7 claw+mb is worse then the old claw, and it's two skill.
as a necro coach i consider myself lucky, because in our tabletop league
we have two orc and one dwarf team, so my two claw/MB wolves (lucky doubles) are better then they were. but if we reset the league and everyone will get an elf team, what will I do with my "wonder" claws? |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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| Posted:
Sep 13, 2006 - 11:58 |
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| Synn wrote: | I do not see chaos as weaker by any sense and never have honestly.
I think that Chaos Warriors should start with block (always have in fact). Either way the fumbbl stats are skewed since a lot of n00b coaches use chaos and they really have no clue what they are doing.
Chaos will be quite strong in the new edition and the reason has NOTHING to do with mutations.....
__Synn |
wise synn...
So let me summarize:
chaos is not weak and thus CW should get block. Can you explain me the reasonning there?
Oh and, what are the reasons why chaos should be strong? |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 13, 2006 - 12:07 |
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| z3d wrote: | | everyone talks about how claw+MB is better then the old claw. |
I don't remember anyone making that particular comparison, actually. I will say that I think that the Vault Claw+MB is better than the current Claw+MB though.
| Quote: | | but if we reset the league and everyone will get an elf team, what will I do with my "wonder" claws? |
Why would they all get elf teams? By all reports, 5.0 means less income and more on-pitch death. Doesn't sound like an elf-balling paradise to me … |
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Tophat
Joined: Jun 01, 2006
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| Posted:
Sep 13, 2006 - 12:15 |
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| sk8bcn wrote: |
So let me summarize:
chaos is not weak and thus CW should get block. Can you explain me the reasonning there?
Oh and, what are the reasons why chaos should be strong? |
i think its cos synn likes killing stuff |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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| Posted:
Sep 13, 2006 - 12:22 |
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| Jackbedead wrote: | | Every chaos team had at least one big hand, they won't anymore |
Really? Mine didn't. But I probably will on LRB5. I yet always was disturbed by the fact that when I got a double, I could spend it on SF, tentacles, claw, frenzy while Big Hand just used to give give me a chance to pick the ball up when it got loose. I'd rather waited a turn or so with correct blocks and chain to free it, especially if I got an +ag player somewhere to pick it correctely in 1 TZ.
The new BH is an unmodified ag roll on a simple. So you're +ag player has the same than old BH rule and any other player may have it on simple. Maybe less chances to get it, but worth the skill roll requierement worth.
| Quote: | | as possible usually had claw, they won't anymore |
Nope, unless you exclusively play high AV teams, but just a few killers, just like in LRB4.
| Quote: | | es was a must for a minotaur or even a chaos warrior, not anymore |
No maybe not, still good though.
| Quote: | | block and MB are standard.... on chaos? Boring. |
upsss, I probably missed something. I currently pick block and guard as standart. You must not be playing the same game as me....
| Quote: | | I'll be playing rotters thank you. |
well fair point. Rotters are fun, agrees.
| Quote: | | Everything that made chaos fun, the mutations, are now worthless and so then is the team. |
Not really. The main point is that the standart spiralling expenses rules are what limit chaos. Would you have more room to build your team, high TV chaos would be one of the best race around.
| Quote: | | I got flack for saying that chaos dwarves stayed the same. First off, they lost Troll. That sucks, since the minotaur is twice as likely to get killed or retired with it's lower armor and lack of regen. Then they got mutation, but only on the blockers, so they'll ever actually take the mutations. So all in all, I think they've gotten a tiny bit weaker, but not enough to affect their play style. |
loss of troll: ok true! but mutation? Heck, you could now on a double hit every high AV player as if he was AV7. And you can add MB O_o Isn't that JUST very strong? Isn't that a huge improvement to the team?
| Quote: | | Other teams that took a hit was skaven, pretty hard one too, with the weakening of team favorites like very long legs and big hand. Also the price change of the rat ogre. |
no comment. I am far of a skaven expert.I can't judge.
| Quote: | | Undead got a boost by giving strength skills to the wights and it was a fair trade to lose gen on the mummies. But poor Khemri got hid bad since they only lost gen on the mummies. |
This would requier futher thinkings. There are too deep changes to just say that, especially on apo decrease of value compared to regen, and PO effect on a player already having MB.
| Quote: | The best new teams to hit the scene?
Rotter - now an amazing team, these guys ARE the new chaos team. Coming with a possible 5 players with foul appearance, 9 regenerates, the new disturbing presence, and cheap fodder linemen!? Very nice. |
| Quote: | | Dark Elves - I still get four blitzers with move 7 and armor 8, and with less reliance on fan factor I'll finally get that reroll I always wanted. I'm not convinced on assassin quite yet, but it basically allows Dark Elves to get around their *only* problem, str 5+ players. Woot, like they needed help. |
assassins sucks unless the combination with multiple block prooves to be effective. I'd bet they won't be the value worth, and finally ignored. Vs AV9 big guys it's a 1 chance out of 6 to break the armor. And he has to take the blow after if he fails.
| Quote: | | Lizardmen - Wrestle! Juggernaught! Fend! All of these new skills smile very nicely on saurus. Plus with the loss of casualty machines like claw and the weakening of tentacles skinks will see a lot more good plays on the field. This team is benefitting not from a lineup change, but it seems that all of the skill changes really benefit them. Say you wrestle down a chaos warrior, he gets up and can move one square to your 3, you come out on top, and best part you'll be harder to cover since you have a good chance of knocking them down and not worrying about dodging away. Fend will also keep players out of your tackle zone. Juggernaught also seems like a great pick for the guys. Sneaky git on skinks, oh yes, with that move they'll be fouling machines. |
nothing to add, not thought about them enough. |
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Qaz
Joined: Apr 28, 2004
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| Posted:
Sep 13, 2006 - 12:28 |
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Lrb 4 what made chaos special was there power to destroy.
They had less armour and starting skills than orcs and dwarfs but made for this with there ability to bash a litle better that the other 2.
Lrb5 Orcs and Dwarfs (CDs included) still have hig armour and good bash eaven better now with the improved PO. Chaos dont have the awaresome bash and still lacks the armour.
Sure u can make a chaos team dedicated to hunt hig av teams but u cant make a decent turnement team as claw is a waste on elfs.
Chaos as ball players. Ok chaos can now get some mutations to help them with the ball. lets look at this
Beastman with Extra arms and 2 heads. Whoo he now plays as an elf.
thats 2 skill rolls.
Dark Elf Lino 2 skill rolls block and doge. Whos is the best player there???
2 skills to get as good as a rooky elf. naa chaos will never be ball players either.
So what are we left with? either create a team that hunts orcs for sports and dodge all elfs.
or try to create a chaos team that can bash both some orcs and some elfs. This is posible but chaos wont be nerly as good as this as Orcs.
It just comes down to the fact that chaos dont have special bash power in lrb 5 and they start with less armour and less skills.
Lrb 5. is the dawn of elfs and CDs. Orcs stay strong as they have always bin.
CDs where good as they where and with a few claws (yes eaven the new claw) they will be a real force.
Why is claw so good for CDs and not for chaos? it comes down to starting skills. a beastman or CW needs a ton of skills to make him good. The CDB just need guard MB and then one or 2 with a claw. and the guys that dont get claw take PO. |
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fen
Joined: Sep 10, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 13, 2006 - 12:32 |
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| pac wrote: | | I would speculate (and perhaps fen can confirm or refute this) that many or most <i>Human</i> teams would be able to outbash most Chaos in 5.0. |
I can to confirm this, my Chaos have been outbashed by Humans a lot in LRB5. Something that never happened in LRB4 because I was able to open fire with mutations to get the on pitch advantage asap. Also as the TVs went up, the Human teams became better at outbashing my Chaos teams. I never reached a point where I felt like I had the upper hand in the bashing stakes. |
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z3d
Joined: Apr 16, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 13, 2006 - 13:22 |
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| pac wrote: |
| Quote: | | but if we reset the league and everyone will get an elf team, what will I do with my "wonder" claws? |
Why would they all get elf teams? By all reports, 5.0 means less income and more on-pitch death. Doesn't sound like an elf-balling paradise to me … |
more on pitch death? how? as i remember claw+MB+PO has better cas rate then the old claw+rsc...wait you can have fend to prevent PO. of course juggernaut counters fend, but its now claw+MB+PO+jugger and a CW/beastmen needs block, so its 5 skill now, without tackle a 2d block is 31% success only against a blodger, so a chaos killer needs 176 SPP to gain higher cas. Very easy to reach.
And if we have this killer and he uses his killer skills than he'll end up prone after his action, and what happens with a prone killer? He will be fouled to hell.
more death on pitch. |
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Tophat
Joined: Jun 01, 2006
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| Posted:
Sep 13, 2006 - 13:29 |
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Qaz : Im sure there are a few chaos coachs that wouldnt mind having a few rookie dark elfs on their roster . |
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