Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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 Posted:
Jul 31, 2012 - 14:02 |
 
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| dode74 wrote: | | Garion wrote: | I understand HMs frustration tbh because that was sooooooooo easy to find but people are quicker to start throwing muck about rather than keeping them self informed. Though I think that is turning into a global truth about everything in this horrible age we live tbh but that's for another discussion  |
True, but you either move with the times or die out. The game itself is hard enough for a novice, making the site hard to use (compared to others) compounds things. |
The site is moving with the times, and it is better run and better organised than its main competitor, and has far far fewer bugs FACT. The only reason I can see people not coming here is for the graphics which is pathetic really.
Even if people were sent an introduction email telling them where they can find info about the rng etc... do you really think anyone is going to read that stuff. The answer is no, they will just come on the forum and start throwing muck.
When i joined I spent time reading everything i could find in the help section and it was a far bigger mess then that it is now.
Bottom line is people are lazy.
Only useful thing to take from this I think is getting academy up and running with the Grod Bot.
I think giving newbs the option to play against poor AI to start off would be good.
There is already a quick start guide on the site, that tells newbs how to get started - http://fumbbl.com/help:CRP
if they don't read it do they deserve anymore help?
because it is really easy to get started now.
Again when i joined I had to find the java bowl client get that installed, sort out IRC, none of that is needed anymore. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Jul 31, 2012 - 14:15 |
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| Woodstock wrote: | | koadah wrote: | | I just cannot imagine getting offended by someone (very politely) questioning software that I didn't write and is apparently considered to be amongst the best available. |
But that is the issue... Most of those threads aren't even questioning the software. They make a statement that the RNG is flawed and that it would never happen in real life.
The problem is not the subject, but with what mindset people come here and if they try to adept. If they are arrogant, they get hammered, if they are polite, they get help. It is something that is pretty normal out there in the real world if you look at animals, it is in our nature. |
I don't think that you are saying the same thing as Mouse & Fela.
They seem to be saying that just questioning the RNG is wrong. They seem to consider it rude.
Terms like "So my question is had anyone similar experiences with Fumbbl rolling strange dice for you? " and "I've also grown sceptical" don't seem too bad to me. |
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plasmoid
Joined: Nov 03, 2009
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Jul 31, 2012 - 14:15 |
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Hi Garion,
I'm really not saying this to be cute or rude:
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Again when i joined I had to find the java bowl client get that installed, sort out IRC, none of that is needed anymore.
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Maybe you're special then. Perhaps that also turned away a lot of people back in the day.
I know there are a million was to poke fun at this, but I send out a very short introductory email to new coaches on the MBBL. I've got good response to those.
As for graphics being a pathetic reason, I've seen pbem slammed by at least 1 FUMBBL coach because of the (admittedly terrible) graphics. We all have different criteria for what we want to look at. Maybe the kids just want their poo shiny? I'm 37, I don't care about graphics.
Cheers
Martin |
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zakatan
Joined: May 17, 2008
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Jul 31, 2012 - 14:17 |
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the graphics aren't terrible. They are functional. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Jul 31, 2012 - 14:25 |
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the graphics are fine here, anyone that needs shiny poo in my mind is just an idiot.
A game like BB with loads of bugs with crap shiny graphics, terrible camera angles, vs a version of the game with basic functional symbols, almost no bugs that is faster, easier to use, more intuitive, better camera angle. It really no contest.
As for PBeM -
The problem with PBEM is there is no immediate way to differentiate players. They are all just blue or red. All it would take would be positional names on the pitch to make PBeM a perfectly good way of playing. At the moment red or blue squares are very very tough to work with. |
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dode74
Joined: Aug 14, 2009
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Jul 31, 2012 - 14:26 |
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@ Garion - I'm not talking about how much you had to do then compared with now. I'm talking about your average user who plays games which are easy to get to grips with and have intuitive interfaces (not Cyanide - the UI there is awful) and forums who then comes here and has to tackle something far harder than they are used to. Lazy or not, that's a hurdle, and this is supposed to be a pastime, not a job: people should be able to be lazy when they are relaxing, or at least not be required to put in more effort than is necessary. Ask them to do so and you put them off. |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Jul 31, 2012 - 15:01 |
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Well I don't see myself as part of the old boys club, and very often go against the established grain. I also think I do more than my fair share for beginners, and I believe I am helpful and welcoming. I would like and encourage new members to join. However, I wouldn't like to see this site become like say....xbox live style gaming rooms, which are an absolute shambles due to players getting away with pretty much what they want. So yes, many of those who don't workout aren't welcome long, one way or another.
I'm not anti questioning the RNG per say, however I am anti questioning it without foundation. If you programmed something, and someone comes along and belittled it without testing it, you wouldn't be upset? I certainly would.
It also questions the site's integrity, the owners intelligence for picking an RNG, his work ethic for testing it and anybody who has evaluated the data thoroughly. Do the doubters really believe such work hasn't happened? If so that's pretty stupid, therefore I believe they deserve an negativity aimed at them. |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Jul 31, 2012 - 15:04 |
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| plasmoid wrote: | Hi Garion,
I'm really not saying this to be cute or rude:
I know there are a million was to poke fun at this, but I send out a very short introductory email to new coaches on the MBBL. I've got good response to those.
Cheers
Martin |
I'm certainly not anti this suggestion. What it would need to cover would be difficult though. |
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dode74
Joined: Aug 14, 2009
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Jul 31, 2012 - 15:16 |
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I don't think I've suggested that this should become like an XBox live gaming room. All I'm saying is that the format isn't as easy as it could be to enable people to use the functionality which is there.
I really can't see how questioning the RNG is insulting anyone, especially given that the time has been taken to write a wiki entry about it, the existence of which presumes that the RNG will be questioned. If, after being pointed in the direction of the wiki entry, people still question it then they are simply demonstrating their own stupidity.
In a welcome e-mail I'd cover some simple things like links to the rules (game and site), some of the wiki pages (particularly the "getting started" section), and a few of the more frequently asked questions where links are easily provided (RNG, MM criteria etc) as well as an indication that one should use, and a link to, the search function of the forum. Much more than that and it won't get read and would be a waste of time. |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Jul 31, 2012 - 15:43 |
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Point 1: This wasn't aimed at you. This wasn't aimed at anyone. Just my view of new people joining FUMBBL.
Point 2: Neither coach involved (in questioning the dice rolls) expressed any interest in learning about the RNG. I and certainly others, would have no problem in pointing coaches who wish to learn about the RNG and what makes their dice roll, in the right direction.
Point 3: When joining you can't avoid the rules page, you click you have agreed and read them.
Obviously this would be upto Christer, but in principle I think it would be a good idea, we do see problems repeated. Things I'd like to include would be.
Links to a guide to using blackbox and the new gamefinder.
A reminder to read and understand the site rules, as they are important.
Links to problem pages (disconnections).
A brief outline of the ticket system.
A link to using the game system. |
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Overhamsteren
Joined: May 27, 2006
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Jul 31, 2012 - 15:48 |
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I think having a beginners forum at the top with no flaming or trolling allowed would be a good idea.
I started playing here 1½ years ago when the new client was released and found it very easy but then again like Garion I also played old games with 100 page manuals and simple graphics and dying/losing all the time. And had 15 years of practice as a forum warrior learning not to give a shit or just leaving it if it somehow got to me. 
I read most of the help section, had already played 20+ games irl, read the rulebook several times, specced several games, knew irc from my counter strike days, got good help in the chat when I needed it, started every game telling my opponent that I was new to the client which was always met by friendly and helpful chat, and had decent tactics to build upon so I didn't have to go 1/0/20 in my first games although I still got pretty clobbered a few times.
I guess I can see how this would be harder for someone with less experience in these areas and a little less patience. |
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dode74
Joined: Aug 14, 2009
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Jul 31, 2012 - 16:01 |
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@ HM
1. Fair enough - we appear to be roughly in agreement then.
2. Actually the OP on that thread asked a question and was met with some reasonable answers and a couple of derisory ones. Not one person linked to the wiki page (although Garion did link to the dakkdakka page with the test of GW dice). Whitmire did appear to have made up his mind, but again he could easily have been shown to be to be factually incorrect by linking to the wiki page which mentions the diehard tests for randomness.
3. Yep, and I'm sure you read the Ts & Cs of everything you sign up to as well, right?
The site rules are a wall of text, and an e-mail emphasising the need for compliance certainly can't hurt at all. |
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WhatBall
Joined: Aug 21, 2008
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Jul 31, 2012 - 16:08 |
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| dode74 wrote: | I'd be happy to move here full-time if my league did (OCC, not FOL) already - the changes I mentioned would simply improve an already-better client for me. I doubt that the members of my league all want the same from their online version as I do though, so I wouldn't ask them to do so. I do know that some of them play here as well though, so I suspect that those would be happy whichever client was used.
I doubt FOL could ever move here - it's simply the cyanide-pretty version of B, of a similar size (~160 games a day), which I don't have the tools to police as effectively. If Cyanide ever dump the servers entirely then this is where I'll be suggesting the FOL players come. |
Thanks for the honest response. I'll do my best to get your league over here and the rest of the FOL players. 
And Cyanide doesn't have Squigs.
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stej
Joined: Jan 05, 2009
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| Posted:
Jul 31, 2012 - 16:53 |
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Going slightly off topic for a second
I'd love to see a dungeon bowl client with a dungeon editor |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Jul 31, 2012 - 17:17 |
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