JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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 Posted:
Dec 12, 2014 - 21:18 |
 
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Far too skewed *in your opinion*. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Dec 12, 2014 - 21:24 |
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| harvestmouse wrote: | | JimmyFantastic wrote: | | Not really a problem. TV management is part of the game and higher CR coaches certainly tend to do that better. |
A huge problem, the major problem with the game right now, and you're one of the coaches benefitting from it.
TV management and it's success is far too skewed. |
Not since the scheduler fix IMO.
Better coaches are likely to have better teams. Coaches who play a lot are likely to have better teams.
Hardcore "I really, really hate losing coaches" are likely to have better teams.
That will always be the way. |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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| Posted:
Dec 12, 2014 - 21:30 |
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| harvestmouse wrote: | | JimmyFantastic wrote: | | Not really a problem. TV management is part of the game and higher CR coaches certainly tend to do that better. |
A huge problem, the major problem with the game right now, and you're one of the coaches benefitting from it.
TV management and it's success is far too skewed. |
Ok, now we are getting to the "rub" of the issues of CRP as it relates to FUMBBL.
Which I will add has nothing to do with the OP and his rant on CR and Christers chime in's on the CR as related to FUMBBL
CRP is a great rule set for the set piece weekend tourney, usually at a rookie to very low TV range, rules regulating skill choices and so forth. In that environment it levels the "playing field" of the teams to a certain degree. Now since it is a low TV setting, dice and coach skill have huge swings on results. Especially the dice luck factor. Teams have low RR's, very little skill back ups for free RR's.
CRP on FUMBBL now that is another beast all in its self. Perpetual open play. TV ranges over 2200 and pushing 3000. Mammoth teams of titanic proportions compared to your TT local league or NAF tournament.
TV management and Team build up tactics are HUGE on FUMBBL. Coaches who have a "eye" on the long play come out farther ahead on the end game. Good coaches are better at seeing 30 games down the road, the end result of the run and how to position their team in terms of TV and Team management.
You could make the case that the best coaches, which is usually reflected in their CR, have adjusted to this FUMBBL CRP world we live in. They are not banging their heads against the wall, reinforcing the definition of insanity and winning more than they are losing.
Now the idea of sweet spotting TV and taking only the best skill combos possible instead of building for fluff or spreading out the SPP across the roster seems to be at the core of some coaches grief with CRP.
FUMBBL teams in general no longer build up to full rosters. Have a spread of SPP across the roster to have a full compliment of core skills and supports skills. They no longer play BB like it used to be played. It reduces the games to short rosters of 11-13 men, depitch rates of certain skills take front stage because now we are playing with 11-13 men rosters. Which of course in your standard NAF set piece tourney a discussion of depitch rates is mute because you cannot take the skills neccesary to begin with to depitch at a high % rate.
So lets go back to the start of the CR discussion. You want a high CR on FUMBBL. You need to get really, really good at Team mangement, TV management and if you play in the Ranked scene, you better study up on what the Race VS Race dynamics are. "picking" on the gamefinder is not a high CR coach facing a low CR coach. It is a coach who know just by the race of his team which other teams he has the edge to beat because of the racial component of the match up. Which is why some coaches scream that this Legend picks on low CR coaches. It is because the high CR coaches know that the match up right off the bat of Race VS Race is not a good match for them. Only the low CR coaches accept the match up because they are learning the hard way.
If you play in the Box scene. Well I hate to be the bearer of really bad news. You need to get your head straight that under CRP in the BOX. It is all about bash, picking the right skill combos and taking names and numbers.
We are not sitting around some table in Scotland drinking our ale, patting each other on the back on how well our mini's are painted and getting set for a 2 day 6 round swiss tourney of 1100 TV with 7 skill choices.
We are playing on FUMBBL. The largest, biggest and most bad ass HIGH TV perpetuial BLOOD BOWL League in the world. We play rough, we kill pixels at a high rate and we take no prisoners. Now during all this anarchy we have somehow managed to have a thriving community, a awesome group of coaches and a really fun place to play Blood Bowl. I did not even mention our great League's and our wonderful Stunty Div, which is home grown. |
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Last edited by PainState on %b %12, %2014 - %21:%Dec; edited 1 time in total |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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| Posted:
Dec 12, 2014 - 21:32 |
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| koadah wrote: | | harvestmouse wrote: | | JimmyFantastic wrote: | | Not really a problem. TV management is part of the game and higher CR coaches certainly tend to do that better. |
A huge problem, the major problem with the game right now, and you're one of the coaches benefitting from it.
TV management and it's success is far too skewed. |
Not since the scheduler fix IMO.
Better coaches are likely to have better teams. Coaches who play a lot are likely to have better teams.
Hardcore "I really, really hate losing coaches" are likely to have better teams.
That will always be the way. |
Nah, that's crazy talk. It's still a massive problem. All the scheduler has fixed is rookie bashing, not intuitive team building. The problem is, you've all become tuned to it, or aren't aware of anything else.
Better coaches (meaning CRwise?). There's a lot of coaches that have taken advantage of TV to skew their CR. Even with the new match maker, or in ranked. I do think team building should have some weight on the outcome, however in CRP that percentage is far too high.
For me, it's destroyed the game, how can 11 player teams be the optimum build? It's just stupid, and unintuitive. Coaches expect to build teams, and make them stronger and stronger. The fact this isn't in the coaches best interest, means you end up being counter productive. Giving up good skill choices because they aren't beneficial TV wise. All this is fun killing for minmaxing. It's all just become very lame, and unfortunately, yes coaches that do this do better, which has little to do with actual skills. |
Last edited by harvestmouse on %b %12, %2014 - %21:%Dec; edited 1 time in total |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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| Posted:
Dec 12, 2014 - 21:34 |
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| JimmyFantastic wrote: | | Far too skewed *in your opinion*. |
Sure, but your opinion is at the most extreme. I also believe your opinions and play style are not in the best interest for the site or the game/benefit coaches as a whole.
Re painstate I agree. Teams are playing with 11-13 man rosters. Is this right? I mean should the game be like this? We have room for 16 players, this is what the game wants you to strive for. Not trying to get 16 players is just...limiting the game of what is was and is supposed to be. This is just one aspect of how the game has become handicapped. |
Last edited by harvestmouse on %b %12, %2014 - %21:%Dec; edited 1 time in total |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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| Posted:
Dec 12, 2014 - 21:38 |
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Now of course after I just laid down the law and told it like it is.
I think it is all dog poop. Iam with Harvestmouse and still play what I think is to the spirit of Blood Bowl that I grew up with in the late 80's.
The Blood Sea Buccaneers will always strive for the 16 man roster. 16 players with 31+ SPP on all of them. Because I think in the end....that plan will win out against 11-13 short manned rosters no matter how many inducements you get.
RAH!!!!!!! TAKE THAT!!!!!!!!!
Damn the CR Torpedoes!!!!!!! |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Dec 12, 2014 - 21:58 |
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| harvestmouse wrote: |
For me, it's destroyed the game, how can 11 player teams be the optimum build? It's just stupid, and unintuitive. Coaches expect to build teams, and make them stronger and stronger. The fact this isn't in the coaches best interest, means you end up being counter productive. Giving up good skill choices because they aren't beneficial TV wise. All this is fun killing for minmaxing. It's all just become very lame, and unfortunately, yes coaches that do this do better, which has little to do with actual skills. |
Is it the optimum build? Have you got any stats?
Are these 11 man 1550 pact gonna take down the 2300 chaos?
How will they do if they lose the toss?
I'm skeptical Mouse. |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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| Posted:
Dec 12, 2014 - 22:14 |
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Are you saying minmaxing has been eradicated from the site? You're using one extreme example here, which is a little off the original point. Coaches are using optimum building (meaning there is more emphasis on team building to win games than there ought to be) to inflate their CR.
Going long into a Major, isn't seeing as much or extreme team building (where your 2 teams might meet). However, that is a small part of the site, and is generally the domain of the better coaches. That said, optimum building does still have a lot to do with it. The_Sage with his DE as an example, played the TV game to his advantage. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Dec 12, 2014 - 22:41 |
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| harvestmouse wrote: |
Re painstate I agree. Teams are playing with 11-13 man rosters. Is this right? I mean should the game be like this? We have room for 16 players, this is what the game wants you to strive for. Not trying to get 16 players is just...limiting the game of what is was and is supposed to be. This is just one aspect of how the game has become handicapped. |
Is this what you call ruining the game?
Some of us old geezers remember when you were only allowed one substitute in football and two in rugby. 
I bet there are some greybeards who remember no substitutes being allowed at all.
Sorry Mouse, I'm not gonna see 13 man teams as a problem whatever you say.
| harvestmouse wrote: | | Are you saying minmaxing has been eradicated from the site? You're using one extreme example here, which is a little off the original point. Coaches are using optimum building (meaning there is more emphasis on team building to win games than there ought to be) to inflate their CR. |
Team management is part of the game. If you are going to play in a 'competitive' division then you should play competitively if wish.
If the commish doesn't like how it is playing out he can tweak the league/rules however he likes.
Fumbbl 'competitive' divisions aren't 'the game'. For me, apart from that old CPOMB thing 'the game' is better than ever.
| harvestmouse wrote: |
Going long into a Major, isn't seeing as much or extreme team building (where your 2 teams might meet). However, that is a small part of the site, and is generally the domain of the better coaches. That said, optimum building does still have a lot to do with it. The_Sage with his DE as an example, played the TV game to his advantage. |
I don't which of his teams you mean but good luck to him.
CR just means that you win a lot.
If something is overpowered nerf it. |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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| Posted:
Dec 12, 2014 - 23:40 |
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| koadah wrote: |
Sorry Mouse, I'm not gonna see 13 man teams as a problem whatever you say.
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Interesting because I think the root bitch about the high depitch rate of certain skills is that coaches are now so paranoid of TV that they play 13 man rosters. So they are causing some of the issues themselves.
13 man roster faces off against the Kill stack. By the end of the first half they are down to 9 man squad. Now if they had 16 to start they would still have a full squad for the second half.
This is not about CPOMB..this is about the other team. You are bitching and moaning because "you" by your own hair brain scheme thought it was a glorious plan of attack to hit the pitch with 11-13 players. Compound that by playing in the Box were you have no clue what is coming.
Yes, CPOMB is an issue but lets not let coaches off the hook for playing with a shortmanned roster and they bitch that the depitch rate is to high for certain skill combos.
I aint buying that. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Dec 13, 2014 - 00:00 |
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| PainState wrote: | | koadah wrote: |
Sorry Mouse, I'm not gonna see 13 man teams as a problem whatever you say.
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Interesting because I think the root bitch about the high depitch rate of certain skills is that coaches are now so paranoid of TV that they play 13 man rosters. So they are causing some of the issues themselves.
13 man roster faces off against the Kill stack. By the end of the first half they are down to 9 man squad. Now if they had 16 to start they would still have a full squad for the second half.
This is not about CPOMB..this is about the other team. You are bitching and moaning because "you" by your own hair brain scheme thought it was a glorious plan of attack to hit the pitch with 11-13 players. Compound that by playing in the Box were you have no clue what is coming.
Yes, CPOMB is an issue but lets not let coaches off the hook for playing with a shortmanned roster and they bitch that the depitch rate is to high for certain skill combos.
I aint buying that. |
9/10 men for the 2nd half is not that big a deal.
The bigger issue is that the way we play on Fumbbl your reserves most likely won't get on the field.
We grind out the full 8 turns. Your reserves are also not likely to have many skills or may be gimped.
When you see your opponent score on turn 4/5 you rub your hands with glee.
If you weight the rules in favour of 16 man teams you will get even more whining when a player dies as many coaches will struggle to keep their rosters full. |
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Mr_Foulscumm
Joined: Mar 05, 2005
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| Posted:
Dec 13, 2014 - 00:06 |
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This conversation is odd. What does any of this have to do with CR?
Was CR so boring that we had to move on to the Blackbox scheduler? |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Dec 13, 2014 - 00:10 |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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| Posted:
Dec 13, 2014 - 00:22 |
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| Mr_Foulscumm wrote: | This conversation is odd. What does any of this have to do with CR?
Was CR so boring that we had to move on to the Blackbox scheduler? |
You know Harvestmouse  |
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Pull down the veil - actively bad for the hobby! |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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| Posted:
Dec 13, 2014 - 00:37 |
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Now we've gone from 11 to 13. However I think you're deliberately missing the point, as it's very difficult to make articulately.
What is the point of having 16 man rosters, if we don't use them? What is the point of having the ability to take several rerolls if we don't buy them? What is the point of having stat skills if we refuse them?
There is a roleplaying aspect to this game, which is vital. Otherwise we're just playing chess with dice. If you take away the striving for the best possible team, then you are removing a massive part of the game. It becomes more like chess, which to some degree has happened to tabletop competitions. However there, the fluff is strong due to building and painting teams.
If you cut out TV, what would happen? No more sweet-spotting, and you still have a lot of team management. I think team rating has a place, just it's importance right now overly exaggerated in importance and detrimental to the fantasy world and team building. Players want to dream of building the best team, not see teams constantly tread water as it makes them the most efficient.
Of course, we've always had management. Management that stops us building the most powerful team possible. However it's never been as prominent as it is now, and at some stage, it's a stage too far. |
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