pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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 Posted:
Feb 22, 2007 - 00:30 |
 
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I've often seen coaches mention in passing that they would like to see some kind of FUMBBL 'Champions League' - an Unranked tournament that pitted the best of the teams from major Unranked tournaments against each other.
Now, there are countless problems with this - which I'll go into below in some detail - but there's no doubt that it's also a very attractive idea.
<b>Attractions</b>
Many experienced coaches agree that the most competitive and challenging environment on FUMBBL is to be found in the major Unranked leagues, such as SWL and Svenska Ligan.
Good as leagues like these are, they remain restricted to their niche: what makes them practical, and robust, is that they draw their coaches from a limited regional/linguistic area. But this also limits their appeal outside those niches: I don't know (without checking) who the current SWL or Svenska Ligan champion is, whereas I do know who the champions of the Ranked majors are - this despite the fact that I would consider winning either of those leagues to be a comparable achievement to a big Ranked win.
Compared to Ranked tournaments, Unranked ones lack profile. This is in part due to site design. Ranked tournaments can advertise on the front page, and have a dedicated member of site staff promoting them. Word about Unranked leagues travels more haphazardly.
Also, Unranked leagues lack big show-piece matches. Mostly, they are scheduled leagues, typically without play-offs. There is no big single game which is the decider, which everyone wants to see. There is no big draw for spectators (who then become would-be participants).
Inter-league competitions offer the possibility to rectify this somewhat. Leading teams from FUMBBL's leading leagues, coached by proven coaches, matched up against one another. And - importantly - real teams, for whom 'rebuilding'-type matches are very much the exception rather than the rule. This is all what many coaches would say is the way Blood Bowl should be: so why don't we see it more often and hear about it more often?
<b>The Possibilities</b>
Many would like to see a near-literal FUMBBL 'Champions League'. This idea is of course fraught with problems, and should - in my opinion - be considered an ultimate long-term objective and not a short-term aim.
We would do better to look at the early days of international club football, which began as one-off games arranged between leading clubs, developed into a number of straight-forward knock-out cup competitions, before taking the form we know today.
Thus, the first goal would be to arrange one-off matches between league champions between seasons - for example. We could then consider moving further if those are considered to be a success.
<b>The Problems</b>
There is no shortage of these … But I'll make a start on them.
• Let's start with the big one: a team can't be in more than one tournament at a time. This makes the real-world football system (where a team competes in domestic competition(s) and a European one simultaneously) impossible.
- Or does it? Teams can be subbed in and out of tournaments. Creative use of that feature might make this possible after all. This would require active and efficient staffing though (and cooperation between domestic and international group staff).
- Alternatively, if we are only considering one-off matches, they could be played between seasons (but see below).
- Or teams could be 'promoted' out of their home league's top division into an international competition. (The question is then whether all representatives would automatically be relegated back home after one season, or how else this would be handled.)
• A parallel problem with the one above is that of synchronising the leagues. The White Isle League has 7 rounds per season, and each round lasts about 10 days. With a pre/post-season break, this means each season turns round in 2.5 to 3 months. Other leagues will run at quite different rates depending on their variables.
- There's no easy solution here. In the end, leagues will have to compromise and change if they want to work together to bring about larger competitions. (If only one-off games were being considered, they could be played just when opportunity arises. Even then, I know already that setting up one-off 'Battle of the Champions' matches can be tricky, after a lack of success (so far!) in arranging a WIL vs NWL one.)
• Differing league rules may also prove a problem. A common set of rules would have to be agreed for any international competition, and in the long run it might also be desirable to 'harmonise' (as they say in EU-speak) the rules in all participating leagues.
• One of the reasons why these leagues sprang up in the first place is time-zones. Just arranging one SWL vs WIL game might be a challenge, never mind a whole tournament's worth of them!
- Due to such issues, the most likely place for competitions of this sort is Europe, where problems are negligible. At the same time, we would not want to forget the importance of the SWL or North American leagues.
• Criteria! What would make a league 'worthy' to participate in an international system like this? That is, when does a tourney stop being just a few friends playing each other and become a nationally representative league? Who would decide which 'national' league officially represented, for example, Germany, which seems to have several major German-speaking [U] leagues? What if a participating league was considered 'corrupt', for example, due to just playing matches to boost its international representative to give them a better chance?
- Problems like these all require a central staff for the new international competitions, and for them to have a good relationship with the staff of the participating leagues. There are a huge range of administrative tasks here.
• Language barriers. Here I am wittering away in English when a lot of my audience - with whom I might hope to set up arrangements like these - is French, Spanish, German, etc. Of all people [pac is a translator], I'm not fool enough to believe one language is enough. I would suggest that rules for such leagues should be translated into those languages (French, Spanish, German) at the least. Official FUMBBL is monolingual - [U] is not so restricted.
<b>Interested leagues</b>
I have PM'd (or am going to PM) a few league commissioners to make them aware of this thread, but I'm not going to make the assumption that they're interested. I'll list commissioners and their leagues as posts are made.
pac - White Isle League (British Isles): Scheduled league, in its 4th season, with 40 coaches
sk8bcn - Armageddon (France): Round-robin league, in its 4th season, with 20 coaches
ClayInfinity - SWL (Oceania: Australia, NZ and Asia): Scheduled league, in its 18th season, with 78 coaches (also additional fringe tournaments)
Askrum - Svenska Ligan (Sweden): Scheduled league, in its 18th season, with 78 coaches
<b>Discussion</b>
Do you think these are even good ideas worth attempting? Are there more problems (I'm sure there are!), or perhaps better solutions to problems? Do you represent a league which would be interested in pursuing this kind of project?
Whatever the case, post here. As things go along, I'll try and edit things into this top post. |
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Last edited by pac on %b %23, %2007 - %01:%Feb; edited 4 times in total |
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rami
Joined: Nov 04, 2004
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Feb 22, 2007 - 00:45 |
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Even though I'm never gonna participate in any of these games the idea sounds really really awesomly cool....
GO FOR IT!!! |
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Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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| Posted:
Feb 22, 2007 - 09:34 |
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I would consider this the pinnacle of what [U]nranked could achieve, and I think any of the problems (of which, I concede, there are many) could be overcome if there was enough support for the idea, which is great.
These leagues are highly competitive, and I would liken winning one of them to an XFL title, or perhaps even better. There is no 'pimping' of teams by playing softer games, and in reality, you have had to play 15 or so highly competitive games to get your team in shape for a run at the title. I know that my WIL team is the only team I have where I'm a bit attached to the pixels, and something to strive for above winning the league would be great fun. Imagine the fun speccing your country’s representative in the Champion's League! I'd cheer Brit for a change 
One thing that I would say is that if this is going to happen, the wheels need to be set in motion soon. [U] Tourney wins being removed from coach bios, the lifting of the 5 [R] team limit, even the new 7 game rule are moving people away from [U] (not by design - as a side-effect. Plenty of tournaments have struggled recently to recruit, where I don't believe they would have had a problem 6 months ago). If and when the new 'tour' (as talked about in the last GLN) hits the ranked scene, I think the interest in all but the strongest [U] tournaments will dwindle significantly. |
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DanTitan76
Joined: Nov 06, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 22, 2007 - 09:47 |
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A good Idea, try to contact Parroco, he is the admin of the Spanish League.... |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 22, 2007 - 12:41 |
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| DanTitan76 wrote: | | A good Idea, try to contact Parroco, he is the admin of the Spanish League.... |
I'll do that. In fact, I haven't PM'd any league commissioners about this thread yet - I'll do it soon! |
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Melmoth
Joined: May 05, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 22, 2007 - 13:49 |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 22, 2007 - 21:01 |
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Okay, I have PM'd Flix and Parroco, as well as Askrum (Svenska Ligan), Da_Todfatha (NWL), ClayInfinity (SWL) and sk8bcn (lots of things!).
If there's anyone else you think should know about this thread, feel free to let them know yourself! |
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In other news, the Hittites are back. Join us in #fumbbl.hi |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 22, 2007 - 21:03 |
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what are the main problems of an interesting Champions League?
errmmmm
I would see a few but I am interested to give it a try!
In theorie, French Armageddon is in!
btw Pac, take a look at Saints League, maybe they could send the 2nd french spot for CL! |
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Walks_in_the_Sun
Joined: Apr 16, 2006
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| Posted:
Feb 22, 2007 - 21:11 |
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It might be easier to set up whole new national leagues that begin as a part of this international competition.
On the other hand, I understand WIL, SWL, and NWL operate on similar rule-sets. You could theoretically start here, by getting all the major rules to agree, and timing the leagues to begin and end more or less concurrently, and then have a championship between seasons. Other leagues could be added over time as long as they met the same general rule sets and agreed to match the schedule. |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 22, 2007 - 21:12 |
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| Walks_in_the_Sun wrote: | | It might be easier to set up whole new national leagues that begin as a part of this international competition. |
There speaks a man who has never set up a league.  |
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Walks_in_the_Sun
Joined: Apr 16, 2006
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| Posted:
Feb 22, 2007 - 21:17 |
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| pac wrote: | | Walks_in_the_Sun wrote: | | It might be easier to set up whole new national leagues that begin as a part of this international competition. |
There speaks a man who has never set up a league. |
simpler, not easier
more efficient/regimented/uniform
you're the one who says cobbling these random leagues together would be rife with problems |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 22, 2007 - 21:23 |
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| Walks_in_the_Sun wrote: | | pac wrote: | | Walks_in_the_Sun wrote: | | It might be easier to set up whole new national leagues that begin as a part of this international competition. |
There speaks a man who has never set up a league. |
simpler, not easier
more efficient/regimented/uniform |
I see. But the last thing we would want is for the system to become regimented or uniform (though efficient wouldn't be so bad).
There's a reason why the SWL has a certain system: because they've concluded it's the best one. There's a reason why Svenska Ligan has a different system: because they've concluded it's the best one. Who's right? Given that they're different leagues in different circumstances, they're probably both right. It would be foolish to try to require them to adopt one cookie-cutter set of compromise rules, and would also be a quick way of ensuring they withdrew from the project.
It would be fine for the participating leagues to have wildly different internal systems, as long as they were able to put forward representatives on a regular basis as agreed between them, and agree on the rules for the central international competition. |
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Join us in building Blood Bowl Sixth Edition.
In other news, the Hittites are back. Join us in #fumbbl.hi |
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Walks_in_the_Sun
Joined: Apr 16, 2006
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| Posted:
Feb 22, 2007 - 21:28 |
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| pac wrote: | | Walks_in_the_Sun wrote: | | pac wrote: | | Walks_in_the_Sun wrote: | | It might be easier to set up whole new national leagues that begin as a part of this international competition. |
There speaks a man who has never set up a league. |
simpler, not easier
more efficient/regimented/uniform |
I see. But the last thing we would want is for the system to become regimented or uniform (though efficient wouldn't be so bad).
There's a reason why the SWL has a certain system: because they've concluded it's the best one. There's a reason why Svenska Ligan has a different system: because they've concluded it's the best one. Who's right? Given that they're different leagues in different circumstances, they're probably both right. It would be foolish to try to require them to adopt one cookie-cutter set of compromise rules, and would also be a quick way of ensuring they withdrew from the project.
It would be fine for the participating leagues to have wildly different internal systems, as long as they were able to put forward representatives on a regular basis as agreed between them, and agree on the rules for the central international competition. |
Sounds like an argument for using new leagues.
But if you can make all the existing leagues offer up champions that fit a generally agreed upon set of criteria, play by an agreed set of rules, at the right time, then there's no problem using the existing ones. |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 22, 2007 - 21:36 |
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| Walks_in_the_Sun wrote: | | Sounds like an argument for using new leagues. |
As I said before, there speaks a man who has never set up a league.
A 'simple' thing like a national league is not an easy thing to create. Those that we have were a challenge for those involved to establish and remain a challenge to maintain and improve. They represent a constituency of committed coaches who should not be asked to throw everything they have contributed to out the window in pursuit of what may amount to a pipe-dream.
In fact, quite the reverse. The fact that the existing leagues already have such large (albeit regional) followings is the very thing that makes a plan like the one outlined above conceivable. Who would want to see the champions of the newly-founded "Oz League" and "Swede League" face off against each other? No one. The champions of SWL and Svenska Ligan - as already established brands - would be another matter. |
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Join us in building Blood Bowl Sixth Edition.
In other news, the Hittites are back. Join us in #fumbbl.hi |
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Walks_in_the_Sun
Joined: Apr 16, 2006
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| Posted:
Feb 22, 2007 - 21:40 |
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| pac wrote: | | Walks_in_the_Sun wrote: | | Sounds like an argument for using new leagues. |
As I said before, there speaks a man who has never set up a league.
A 'simple' thing like a national league is not an easy thing to create. Those that we have were a challenge for those involved to establish and remain a challenge to maintain and improve. They represent a constituency of committed coaches who should not be asked to throw everything they have contributed to out the window in pursuit of what may amount to a pipe-dream.
In fact, quite the reverse. The fact that the existing leagues already have such large (albeit regional) followings is the very thing that makes a plan like the one outlined above conceivable. Who would want to see the champions of the newly-founded "Oz League" and "Swede League" face off against each other? No one. The champions of SWL and Svenska Ligan - as already established brands - would be another matter. |
I'd agree, if you can make it work - I guess I just didn't get your last argument. |
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