ignatzami
Joined: Aug 18, 2008
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 Posted:
Feb 12, 2013 - 23:30 |
 
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I'm looking to start playing Dark Elves in a scheduled TT league. The other 11 teams are all starting teams as well.
I'm going with the default 4 blitzers, 1 runner, 6 Lineman, 2 re-roll build.
I initially planned to build to a full compliment of 4x blitzers, 2x witches, two runners, and 5-6x lineman. However, upon talking to a few veteran Dark Elf coaches, I'm hearing that the Runners may not be a good investment.
The main suggestion I've heard is to give the initial runner Leader at 6, and then sack him with I get my 3rd team re-roll, build up to 4x Blitzer, 2x Witch, and 7-8x Lineman. The concern being the lower armor value of the Runner making him a liability.
In the few games I've played on FUMBBL I usually ball handle with the runner, relying on Dump Off to move the ball when needed. However, I've not played enough to have a good handle one way, or the other.
Any thoughts would be appreciated. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Feb 12, 2013 - 23:36 |
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how could you afford this - 4x blitzers, 2x witches, two runners, and 5-6x lineman.
Yeah 2 runners is a waste. Just go for 4 blitzers, 1 runner, rest linemen, 2 rr.
Best roster without a doubt. |
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Rabid_Bogscum
Joined: Aug 04, 2005
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Feb 12, 2013 - 23:36 |
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meh.. I like em. Especially in Table top your unlikely to come up against stupid numbers of MB PO... I like the rolling running game they provide as well as the ability for a quick 1-2 if needed. |
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p4m
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Feb 13, 2013 - 00:01 |
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why should you sack him when you bought your 3rd RR? unless you get more than 1 guard, you will have problems to maintain 2 witches... |
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Tarabaralla
Joined: Jul 24, 2010
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Feb 13, 2013 - 00:06 |
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For a TT league, where you won't probably play many matches, I'd take 3 Blitzers + 1 Witch + 2 RR. The dump off skill is something more you have, not a minor detail in a short league, but the witch gives you an initial dodger and the threat of Frenzy. Plus, I'd try to always score with a Blitzer/Witch, as they are far more important to develop, and a dedicated ballcarrier could be an spp stealer. |
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Synn
Joined: Dec 13, 2004
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Feb 13, 2013 - 00:19 |
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| Tarabaralla wrote: | | For a TT league, where you won't probably play many matches, I'd take 3 Blitzers + 1 Witch + 2 RR. |
+1
Having the Witch to dodge around and defend the sidelines is great.
A runner is a waste unless you can actually skill them up as an AV7 player without dodge is not the best player to take hits with.
__Synn |
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Azure
Joined: Jan 30, 2007
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Feb 13, 2013 - 00:22 |
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1 Witch Elf
3 Blitzers
7 Lineman
2 Rerolls
Total 1,000k
3 block is good for LOS blocking and blitzing. Witchelf gives you frenzy threat for surf and dodge for a ballcarrier (if facing other young teams without block - she is very hard to take down).
Edit: Yeah - so what Tara and Synn said  |
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uzkulak
Joined: Mar 30, 2004
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Feb 13, 2013 - 00:31 |
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dodge and sure hands on a runner and you have a decent player, I dont really understand the dislike of them, you need someone to pick up the ball when it pops loose - plus ma7 is nice as dark elves need a good average speed to be effective. Agreed that a witch (with block!) is far more dangerous though. |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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Feb 13, 2013 - 00:44 |
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| uzkulak wrote: | | dodge and sure hands on a runner and you have a decent player, I dont really understand the dislike of them, you need someone to pick up the ball when it pops loose - plus ma7 is nice as dark elves need a good average speed to be effective. Agreed that a witch (with block!) is far more dangerous though. |
Any DE can take dodge and or SH, why would you want an overpriced av7 wanker to do that job?
Ideally you get an AG5 at some point, and then that player becomes your ball getter, with or without SH, cuz leap is much more useful on AG5 than is SH. |
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gregory_n_white
Joined: Jan 05, 2006
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Feb 13, 2013 - 00:58 |
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Ill normally sacrifice a blitzer to get a witch elf - the dodge and frenzy can be invaluable early.
And definitely take a runner - dump off has won me a lot of games. Even if the reciever dropps the dump off, you get to choose where the ball ends up (unless its a fumble) and the ball is on the ground in at least one of your TZs, instead of dropped at the feet of a potentially prone runner. |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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Feb 13, 2013 - 01:35 |
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| gregory_n_white wrote: | Ill normally sacrifice a blitzer to get a witch elf - the dodge and frenzy can be invaluable early.
And definitely take a runner - dump off has won me a lot of games. Even if the reciever dropps the dump off, you get to choose where the ball ends up (unless its a fumble) and the ball is on the ground in at least one of your TZs, instead of dropped at the feet of a potentially prone runner. |
People say this a lot, but I don't really get it. Elves generally should not struggle with getting their ball carriers hit a lot. So what is the real usage of Dump Off then?
Further, even though you get to 'choose' where you throw it, the opponent nominally has marked up those targets anyway, so meh, it's about the same thing really.
Now DU/NoS is something else, especially if you have NoS on the catcher as well. But that's even more TV to invest on skills which are totally one dimensional (meaning they have zero utility on defense, and only utility when/if you can pair those two players on the pitch).
That's not to say that DU hasn't won you some games. But has spending 20k extra on an av7 runner cost you some games as well? Where simply an extra line-elf with block/dodge/we would have helped more?
I say go for it if you like it, it's certainly a surprise for coaches who aren't used to it, and it's a way to cheese up some extra spp so long as your runner lives  |
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uzkulak
Joined: Mar 30, 2004
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Feb 13, 2013 - 03:13 |
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But defence is exactly when you use those skills...
The whole point is you can grab the ball in a tough spot and have a decent chance to have hold of it or easily recollect it on the next turn, as your opponent cant blitz two players.
When you play with elves you realise quite quickly that popping the ball loose is just an invitation for pain if your opponent is easily able to get it back again. You need to be able to secure it or at least make it hard for your opponent to get it back. This wins games AND helps keep more players alive as their focus will be (should be) on getting the ball nack.
Thats why a specialist ball grabber (yes, I know...) is often the difference between winning and losing longer term. Ma7 and DO is a good start on such a specialist. |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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Feb 13, 2013 - 04:22 |
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We agree to disagree.
Playing against DEs with most teams you don't care if they score quick. You hit the AV7s until they die then deal with the rest.
DO as a stall tactic is doomed to fail more than running a normal screened stall. Which, you may say, is why you screen the runner. In which case...
I think you see that point. |
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Megrim
Joined: Apr 24, 2011
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Feb 13, 2013 - 05:16 |
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| ignatzami wrote: | I'm looking to start playing Dark Elves in a scheduled TT league. The other 11 teams are all starting teams as well.
I'm going with the default 4 blitzers, 1 runner, 6 Lineman, 2 re-roll build.
I initially planned to build to a full compliment of 4x blitzers, 2x witches, two runners, and 5-6x lineman. However, upon talking to a few veteran Dark Elf coaches, I'm hearing that the Runners may not be a good investment.
The main suggestion I've heard is to give the initial runner Leader at 6, and then sack him with I get my 3rd team re-roll, build up to 4x Blitzer, 2x Witch, and 7-8x Lineman. The concern being the lower armor value of the Runner making him a liability.
In the few games I've played on FUMBBL I usually ball handle with the runner, relying on Dump Off to move the ball when needed. However, I've not played enough to have a good handle one way, or the other.
Any thoughts would be appreciated. |
You can't seriously be concerned about AV7 on the Runner when you have two Witches on the pitch.
Runners are a fine piece, like any elf. All they really need is Blodge, with Dump Off being a nice additional safety valve. You shouldn't be planning on using it, but boy it sure is nice to have it when you need it.
Also, keep in mind that a DE team with two Runners on the pitch is practically impossible to dispossess. |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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Feb 13, 2013 - 06:38 |
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| Megrim wrote: | You can't seriously be concerned about AV7 on the Runner when you have two Witches on the pitch.
Runners are a fine piece, like any elf. All they really need is Blodge, with Dump Off being a nice additional safety valve. You shouldn't be planning on using it, but boy it sure is nice to have it when you need it.
Also, keep in mind that a DE team with two Runners on the pitch is practically impossible to dispossess. |
I dunno about the witches myself, at least they start with dodge, but two seems excessive.
All runners need is blodge? All a line elf needs is blodge, and he's cheaper, and he has AV8. Yes runners are MA 7, but you have 5 (or 6 if you go 2 witches) MA7 anyway. I don't think people are taking runners for their speed :p
DO is a niche skill that really only shines when you pair it with at least pass, but best NoS. A DE runner getting blitzed is throwing out on a 4+ usually, that's not great. Anyone catching it who is marked is catching on a 3+.
These aren't PEs with doubles on the catchers. These are DEs who should play a running game with a nice cage/screen. You don't need a runner to do that, and if you think there's not a big difference between AV7 and AV8 maybe you need to play WE or Skaven a little more
If you really love DO take it on a doubles on someone else, it's still nominally cheaper than actually buying a runner, but I'd guess guard/MB is a much higher doubles priority
Anyway, 2 runners just means 2 fewer players on the pitch after a half of them getting blitzed. Y'all seem to think that defending DO players is actually about trying to get the ball, that's just a side benefit if the interception/bounce is kind.
The real key to defending most elf teams, is simply to keep on removing them from the pitch, and runners, AV7, no defensive skills, go off faster than linemen. Sure sure, DO every now and then rolls 5+ for everything and you get a free spp out of it, but meh, it's really not worth building a player around.
Other than a PE catcher, since he can DO to another catcher with success at 2+ 5- (interception) 2+ (w rr) usually. That's a success rate of ~67%.
Your DE on a 4+ 5- 3+ is only ~28%. |
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