FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Posted: Jun 13, 2014 - 21:23

It's come up time and time again in discussion that elven throwers are about the most useless throwers in the game despite the advantage of having AG4 and Pass. Unless they become stat freaks you're essentially paying 20k for pass and pass skill access. Which leads to the following idea -

What if I use a thrower with his/her passing skill access to take Leader? Well, obviously different teams are different and have different costs associated with their players but it might be illuminating to some to see how good or bad a value a thrower caddy is relative to the next best option.

My method of comparison assumes a few things:

1. You are using the thrower defensively and all attendant skills selected are built towards that. The rationale being, that while yes, you could build a lineman with surehands (and since it's almost always the case that lineman and throwers are only differentiated by skills at the start, not stats), you'd need the additional skill on doubles to do a somewhat equal comparison of their utility potential on offense and that presupposes you would make a lineman into a ball handler.

2. The comparison is Lineman w/ Block + ReRoll vs. Thrower w/ Block + Leader. The rationale is it foolish to create players with Leader who don't have some modicum of survival in them.

3. This comparison assumes a coach utilizes the Leader player on defense in such a way that it's able to utilize the Leader reroll before getting knocked out of the game.

4. You are going from 2 Team ReRolls to 3 Team ReRolls

So let's get into it - I'll start with Elves as they have the cheapest rerolls

Dark Elves

Runner - Block, Leader - 120k
Lineman - Block, 50k Team ReRoll - 140k
Savings: 20k

Now this is the least even of Elven comparisons because Runners are MA7 AV7 to the Lineman's MA6 AV8.

Pro Elfs

Thrower - Block, Leader - 110k
Lineman - Block, 50k Team Reroll - 130k

Savings: 20k

High Elves
Thrower - Block, Leader - 130k
Lineman - Block, 50k Team ReRoll - 140k

Savings: 10k

Wood Elves
Thrower - Block, Leader - 130k
Lineman - Block, 50k Team ReRoll - 140k

Savings: 10k

Next on tap are throwers with Sure Hands. Usually these guys also have Pass which makes them slightly more dynamic as players - Skaven are an interesting team here because while Sure Hands makes a Skaven Thrower capable of an 89% pickup rate, you still often utilize your Gutter Runners for pickups.

Dwarf

Runner: Block, Leader - 120k
Blocker: 50k ReRoll - 120k
Blitzer: 50k ReRoll - 130k

There is no good comparison to Runners as the Blockers are 2 MA slower, and Blitzers are a 0-2 Position which is usually taken regardless and start with Block. Even if you did a comparison of Runners to Blitzer or Blocker, the savings are small to non existent. If you equalize the Runner skills to a Blocker, it becomes even worse as a deal (140k vs 120k) thanks to the inherent Tackle of Blockers.

Humans

Thrower - Block, Leader - 110k
Lineman - Block, 50k Team ReRoll - 120k

Savings: 10K

Khemri

Thro-Ra - Block, Leader - 110k
Khemri Skeleton - Block, 70k Team ReRoll - 130k
Khemri Blitz-Ra - 70k Team ReRoll - 160k

Savings: 20k

In addition to being 20k cheaper, Thro-Ras are faster than the Skeletons. I threw in the Blitz-Ra just to illustrate the similar scenario but differing outcome of a 0-2 position to Dwarves.

Orc

Thrower - Block, Leader - 110k
Lineman - Block, 60k Team ReRoll - 130k

Savings: 20k

Skaven

Thrower - Block, Leader - 110k
Linerat - Block, 60k Team ReRoll - 130k

Savings: 20k

Underworld

Underworld Thrower - Block, Leader - 110k
Underworld Linerat - Block, 70k Team ReRoll - 140k

Savings: 30k

Underworld Skaven Throwers don't have a comparable 0-16 linerat to replace. The Underworld Linerats are 0-2 and I'm not familiar with how most coaches build out teams. It seems like this only becomes a dilemma if you've just lost one of two linerats and have no throwers. Otherwise, I'd assume most coaches would get both eventually.

The next group up are teams where the Thrower has Pass Skill access but no Sure Hands.

Amazon

Thrower - Block, Leader - 110k
Linewoman - Block, 50k Team ReRoll - 120k

Savings: 10k

Norse

Thrower - Leader - 90k
Lineman - 60k Team ReRoll - 110k

Savings: 20k

Chaos Pact

Marauder - Block, Leader - 90k
Marauder - Block, 70k Team ReRoll - 140k

Savings: 50k

Very unique situation where it seems you might want at least 1 Marauder with Leader.

Finally all the teams that don't have a player with natural access to Leader, but have players where the opportunity cost isn't between Leader and an obvious General skill on a doubles Skill roll.

Chaos

Beastman - Block, Leader - 110k
Beastman - Block, 60k Team ReRoll - 140k

Savings: 30k

Chaos Dwarfs

Hobgoblin - Block, Leader - 90k
Hobgoblin - Block, 70k Team ReRoll - 130k

Savings: 40k

Lizardmen

Saurus - Block, Leader - 130k
Saurus - Block, 60k Team ReRoll - 160k

Savings: 30k

Necromatic

Ghoul - Block, Leader - 120k
Wight - Leader - 120k
Zombie - Block, Leader - 90k

Ghoul - Block, 70k Team ReRoll - 160k
Wight - 70k Team ReRoll - 160k
Zombie - Block, 70k Team ReRoll - 130k

Savings: 40k

Since both Ghouls and Wights are 0-2 I find it difficult to imagine most would pay the opportunity cost of forgoing an AG or ST skill to save 40k. Skeletons and Zombies are the same BTW at 40k.

Nurgle

Pesitigor - Block, Leader - 130k
Rotter - Block, Leader - 90k

Pesitigor - Block, 70k ReRoll - 160k
Rotter - Block, 70k ReRoll - 130k

Savings: 30k and 40k

Slann

Catcher - Block, Leader - 130k
Lineman - Block, 50k Team ReRoll - 130k
Blitzer - Block, Leader - 160k

Savings: 0

Not the best comparison since the players are different in stat lines and the Blitzers are not close to being cost competitive

Undead

See Necromatic.

Savings: 40k

Vampire

Vampire - Block, Leader - 160k
Thrall - Block, Leader - 90k

Vampire - Block, 70k ReRoll - 200k
Thrall - Block, 70k ReRoll - 130k

Savings: 40k

I skipped Halflings, Ogres, and Goblins since their 0-16 players usually won't forgo a General skill on a doubles, and their 0-2, or 0-1 players are in the same boat except for the Bombardier who would take Hail Mary Pass.

So with all this information here, I don't think there are clear right or wrong answers but choices that are dependent on a few factors such as:

Current Roster Size
Current ReRoll Pool
Individual Player Development of Team
Current TV level
Competition Pool

From personal experience I think it's a lot easier to contemplate this after losing a lineman and having enough cash to replace them with a thrower. I have several Box teams where I play with 2 rerolls and am working towards getting ReRoll Caddy throwers. The choice to develop a leader Caddy would be a lot easier if I had 3 ReRolls, and was replacing a linerat and did the cut over on 16 SPP.

I think the most counterintuitive thing is that the teams without throwers are the best suited to reap savings from Leader if they're willing to forgo another skill on doubles.

On teams where you have versatile throwers like Skaven and Orcs there might be a case to be made to take Leader on at least one thrower.

Caveats:

This is not accounting for SPP required to build players. I am under the impression that Throwers of all stripes are better able to accumulate SPP by virtue of garbage time passes or actually being utilized by their offense. This might strike you as dubious though and I am inclined to agree in some cases - Norse and Amazon especially. Picking up the ball matters.

It's also hard to account for what players choose on doubles which for a completely even comparison of thrower to lineman would be necessary. I can't speak for everyone here and their rationale but I'll probably include SPP equivalent line players into this too later today. I wanted to avoid people chiming in with "Yeah, but if I roll doubles then guard or MB, obviously"

Any other thoughts you guys would like to share? Rationale or methods you use in determining whether you'd use a ReRoll Caddy? First hand experience with ReRoll Caddies and their efficacy? Think there's a better way to do this?

Last edited by mrt1212 on %b %14, %2014 - %06:%Jun; edited 2 times in total

Oly1987

Joined: Oct 02, 2006

Posted: Jun 13, 2014 - 21:32

would it not be prudent to maybe include Lino with block and leader (on doubles) as a comparison to just buying another reroll?

Garion

Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Posted: Jun 13, 2014 - 21:34

I haven't read it all. Sorry. But elf throwers arenot the most useles by a long shot. The worst is Norse, then zon, then dark elf, then skaven.

Throwing its self is sub optimal as a strategy, compared to running with the ball. However it does have it's place, and elf throwers are at an advantage as they pick up on a 2 and pass on a 2 without any other skills. So they can be useful for assisting 1 and 2 turn touch downs.

Also they are only slightly more expensive than a lino so you may as well have one in elf teams. Keep him on the bench if you like just for those 1 or 2 turn moments.

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JackassRampant

Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Posted: Jun 13, 2014 - 21:48

You are most definitely not the first guy to think of using a Thrower as a Leader caddy. This is common practice on teams with expensive re-rolls and Passing access players who don't suck. Chaos Pact, Khemri, Norse, Orc, Skaven, and Underworld teams all benefit from this. I tend to avoid it on teams with only 50k rerolls, 'cause I like skills with immediate utility.

Leader on doubles is okay, better in Box or Ranked where your TV will be held more directly against you than in League, where you're just shaving/padding your inducement value. Usually I need all my doubles for Guard and stuff, though.

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mrt1212

Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Posted: Jun 13, 2014 - 22:00

Oly1987 wrote:

would it not be prudent to maybe include Lino with block and leader (on doubles) as a comparison to just buying another reroll?

Yes ill be adding those in later when im at home

bghandras

Joined: Feb 06, 2011

Posted: Jun 13, 2014 - 22:02

Most throwers are slightly overpriced. Wood elf throwers should cost 80k for example (and wardancers 130k to balance.) I could go on, but that would steal the topic.

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NerdBird

Joined: Apr 08, 2014

Posted: Jun 13, 2014 - 22:09

A High Elf thrower on a team is highly optimal. You may not use him every game but when you are down a few players late in the game and behind or ahead they are great to sit back with the ball. You don't have to worry about a screen with safe throw, it stretches their average movement to make a quick pass to a Catcher. And if you need to do a one die blitz I would rather have the reroll for that than the pass....

Having more than one would be silly but they really can utilize one.

Garion

Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Posted: Jun 13, 2014 - 22:13

I think you exaggerate. I love it when elf teams hang back with one thrower it means I can almost always force them to score quicker than they want leaving me at least 2 turns to score and then win 2-1. A good screening running game is a lot safer and more reliable for scoring in turn 8.

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JackassRampant

Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Posted: Jun 13, 2014 - 22:43

NerdBird wrote:

A High Elf thrower on a team is highly optimal. You may not use him every game but when you are down a few players late in the game and behind or ahead they are great to sit back with the ball. You don't have to worry about a screen with safe throw, it stretches their average movement to make a quick pass to a Catcher. And if you need to do a one die blitz I would rather have the reroll for that than the pass....

Having more than one would be silly but they really can utilize one.

I like to do this sometimes. Develop essentially a 10-man running play, drop back with the ball, and when my opponent gives me a shot to redirect, go deliver the ball into the cage. It's really best for plays on a short clock, say after forcing a hurried score, but it works on long drives too, though the pass itself tends to come in the middle of the drive rather than at the end. That said, it's not usually my first choice in Turn 1 drives: I'd rather do a running game, though maybe one involving a QP or handoff at some point.

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Smeat

Joined: Nov 19, 2006

Posted: Jun 13, 2014 - 23:44

mrt1212 wrote:

Finally all the teams that don't have a player with natural access to Leader, but have players where the opportunity cost isn't between Leader and an obvious General skill on a doubles Skill roll.
...
Think there's a better way to do this?

I think the assumption that TV savings is the best use of a doubles is... questionable. Possibly, but not always, and certainly not for every coach, every race or every individual team within a given race.

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JimmyFantastic

Joined: Feb 06, 2007

Posted: Jun 13, 2014 - 23:46

I took leader on a Krox once, loved it.

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mrt1212

Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Posted: Jun 14, 2014 - 00:35

Smeat wrote:

mrt1212 wrote:

Finally all the teams that don't have a player with natural access to Leader, but have players where the opportunity cost isn't between Leader and an obvious General skill on a doubles Skill roll.
...
Think there's a better way to do this?

I think the assumption that TV savings is the best use of a doubles is... questionable. Possibly, but not always, and certainly not for every coach, every race or every individual team within a given race.

I'll be doing linemen with equal SPP to throwers in a bit. I think equivalent TV is a good place to start for the discussion though if you're a Box or Ranked coach.

Igvy

Joined: Apr 29, 2007

Posted: Jun 14, 2014 - 00:56

You should really be comparing the leader cost to the cost of taking it as a double on another player.

So it saves 10k.

Which generally means having the standard thrower skills for less.
(taking scaven thrower as an example, starts with pass & sure hands)
10k for pass & sure hands. I'd take that.

spubbbba

Joined: Jul 31, 2006

Posted: Jun 14, 2014 - 01:39

Igvy wrote:

You should really be comparing the leader cost to the cost of taking it as a double on another player.

So it saves 10k.

Very much depends on the team, for elves I'd pretty much always want guard.

Igvy wrote:

Which generally means having the standard thrower skills for less.
(taking scaven thrower as an example, starts with pass & sure hands)
10k for pass & sure hands. I'd take that.

I like players that start with Block and sure hands like, especially human throwers who are a great deal and perfect players to give utility skills to. With skaven gutters tend to make better ball carriers, but the thower can be useful vs leaping elves if you want to cage.

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mrt1212

Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Posted: Jun 14, 2014 - 02:36

Igvy wrote:

You should really be comparing the leader cost to the cost of taking it as a double on another player.

So it saves 10k.

Which generally means having the standard thrower skills for less.
(taking scaven thrower as an example, starts with pass & sure hands)
10k for pass & sure hands. I'd take that.

True, I don't have to do any comparison for Lineman vs. Thrower for identical skills since the Thrower will always be 10k more.

But this raises a larger and harder question that has a lot of qualifications - Should I take Leader on a double on a lineman? As I said towards the bottom of the OP most coaches have very good arguments for Guard, Mighty Blow and Dodge. In my experience it's just not reasonable to assume you run into enough doubles across your team where you'd start contemplating Leader. Except maybe when you're saving 40k

This raises another question inside of that - if you get doubles as a first skill do you take Leader? 2nd? Too many previous conditions to flesh this out - I mean, I don't want people to draw flow charts describing their reasoning...unless they want to Wink

And a direct comparison doesn't really doesn't speak to a practical application of taking Leader on a thrower which is, you would drop a reroll. And the fact that this application doesn't require anything besides SPP. This kind of comparison is assuming you're taking it for this exact purpose.