CorporateSlave3
Joined: Feb 07, 2004
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 Posted:
May 03, 2006 - 15:58 |
 
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Ok, let me start off by saying I fully realize this is something of a hot button issue with many people. I will ask you all to refrain from heavy flaming and simply spouting slogans or racism accusations from either side of the argument.
I am however very interested to find out peoples' opinions (if they have any) on this issue. I know Fumbbl is a highly multicultural community, and expect there would be a large range of viewpoints to be heard.
I am personally having a tough time with the debate. Each sides seems to be able to present both rational and resonable arguments as well as complete (or at least 50%) utter b.s.
I don't have time right now to go into a comprehensive list of what I see as the good and flawed arguements on both sides, though I suspect people will probably articulate many of them in responses anyway.
Finally, just to give some insight to my perspective: I am a second generation 'native' of the USA, married to a foreign born, but legally immigrated, 'resident alien' woman. We live in South Florida between Ft. Lauderdale and Miami - the US city with the highest proportion of foreign born residents (of large US cities - I don't think that takes into consideration small towns that may be almost all migrant workers) |
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Skeloboy
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
May 03, 2006 - 16:02 |
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A dangerous discussion, however interesting and important.
But I cant seem to find out, what you want to discuss, cause you don't present your own view of things, or maybe its just because I dont know anything about US Immigrant Situation. |
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Furious_George
Joined: Aug 13, 2005
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| Posted:
May 03, 2006 - 16:11 |
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If its anything similar to the situation in the UK, its an issue thats just begging for a flame situation. Over here we have a situation where a large body of people claim that were too leniant with our imigration policies, and that these foreigners are taking 'british jobs'. The other half is sick of being called liberals by these hardliners, and is all for letting everyone in. I assume the truth(in america, as here) lies somewhere between the two.
In america is it an issue of national identity or a concern over the division of labour? Interesting issue id like to hear more on. |
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thesquig
Joined: Apr 11, 2004
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| Posted:
May 03, 2006 - 16:18 |
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| Furious_George wrote: | If its anything similar to the situation in the UK, its an issue thats just begging for a flame situation. Over here we have a situation where a large body of people claim that were too leniant with our imigration policies, and that these foreigners are taking 'british jobs'. The other half is sick of being called liberals by these hardliners, and is all for letting everyone in. I assume the truth(in america, as here) lies somewhere between the two.
In america is it an issue of national identity or a concern over the division of labour? Interesting issue id like to hear more on. |
Well, the land of the free was created by migrants. The UK wasnt. |
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Optihut
Joined: Dec 16, 2004
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| Posted:
May 03, 2006 - 16:18 |
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My personal stance is that the open travelling and working we have for Europeans inside the EU is something that should be extended to the whole world (and eventually human space colonies, if we ever get there). Sadly, narrowmindedness and xenophobia will ensure that the borders at large will remain closed. |
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MiBasse
Joined: Dec 04, 2004
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| Posted:
May 03, 2006 - 16:24 |
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| thesquig wrote: | | Furious_George wrote: | If its anything similar to the situation in the UK, its an issue thats just begging for a flame situation. Over here we have a situation where a large body of people claim that were too leniant with our imigration policies, and that these foreigners are taking 'british jobs'. The other half is sick of being called liberals by these hardliners, and is all for letting everyone in. I assume the truth(in america, as here) lies somewhere between the two.
In america is it an issue of national identity or a concern over the division of labour? Interesting issue id like to hear more on. |
Well, the land of the free was created by migrants. The UK wasnt. |
If you go back a 1000 years or so you'll find out that that isn't quite true  |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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| Posted:
May 03, 2006 - 16:26 |
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| thesquig wrote: | | Well, the land of the free was created by migrants. The UK wasnt. |
I thought <i>we</i> were the/a land of the free? You know:
"Land of hope and glory,
Mother of the free ..."
But you're right, the UK is a state created by conquest, colonisation, dynastic union and commercial arm-twisting: much more fun. 
Redfish: 1000 years back there was no United Kingdom, or anything much close to it. Within the history of the UK, probably the only period of mass country-wide inward immigration has been the last 40-50 years. |
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Last edited by pac on %b %03, %2006 - %16:%May; edited 1 time in total |
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Furious_George
Joined: Aug 13, 2005
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| Posted:
May 03, 2006 - 16:28 |
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Created by migrants? Yeah, in as much as they turfed off the former occupants i spose... Not all that different to the way in which Britain has been invaded more times than anywhere else i'd care to mention... It really puts into perspective 'national identity' when you consider it doesnt mean jack  |
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Karhumies
Joined: Oct 17, 2004
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| Posted:
May 03, 2006 - 16:31 |
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| Furious_George wrote: | | Created by migrants? Yeah, in as much as they turfed off the former occupants i spose... Not all that different to the way in which Britain has been invaded more times than anywhere else i'd care to mention... It really puts into perspective 'national identity' when you consider it doesnt mean jack |
"National identity" is always tied to a certain time, age and culture. If we go back a few hundred years, there aren't too many Western countries left which are even relatively the same as they are nowadays. |
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Macavity
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
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| Posted:
May 03, 2006 - 16:35 |
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No, the majority of American citizens do not trace themselves back to The English or Spanish or Dutch, or French who invaded and conquered, most came from other places after. The Squig is quite correct as far as my brief schooling/research holds up. |
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Furious_George
Joined: Aug 13, 2005
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May 03, 2006 - 16:37 |
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Fair point, but it doesnt stop people clinging to the concept of national identity to justify, or to appease, or to hide from social issues.
Theres a notion that society always has been the way it is, because its all we remember, and since its familiar, were opposed to change. Its therefore very easy to stir up resentment to imigrants, since they are sympomatic of the change that is going on all the time in western countries; they are becoming more multicultural.
For many I feel this is unnerving, hence the opposition based on unfamiliarity, rather than geniune social reasons. Dont get me wrong, if the economy benefits from the status quo immesurably, then make that your argument, but often its less thought out than that. |
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Dead Men dont tell tales... But they sure play a mean game of Bloodbowl.
"Hugh Mann eh? Now theres a name I can trust!"
Me Loves Futurama |
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Furious_George
Joined: Aug 13, 2005
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| Posted:
May 03, 2006 - 16:38 |
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Regarding macavities post, I was under the impression 99.9% of americans were at least 2/3rds Irish
I do hope that wasnt the wrong time to lighten the tone a little. |
_________________
Dead Men dont tell tales... But they sure play a mean game of Bloodbowl.
"Hugh Mann eh? Now theres a name I can trust!"
Me Loves Futurama |
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Macavity
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
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| Posted:
May 03, 2006 - 16:40 |
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The average North American is as Irish as it takes to call in sick to work with a hang-over after St. Paddy's  |
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When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up. -C.S. Lewis |
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Furious_George
Joined: Aug 13, 2005
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May 03, 2006 - 16:41 |
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I suspected as much My simpsons fueled education hasnt let me down yet, and with a little help from Futurama I hope to conquer degree studies too |
_________________
Dead Men dont tell tales... But they sure play a mean game of Bloodbowl.
"Hugh Mann eh? Now theres a name I can trust!"
Me Loves Futurama |
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Cloggy
Joined: Sep 23, 2004
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| Posted:
May 03, 2006 - 16:42 |
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I think every country has its own specific ethnic/immigration problems, which mostly are rooted in the origin of the migrants living there.
Looking at the Dutch situation, which is the only one I know well enough to comment on, I'd say the biggest problem lies in the language barrier.
People who don't speak the native tongue of the country they live in will always have a hard time finding any sort of decent job, and thus they automatically form an underclass in society. (with the exception of people who do speak English and work in industries where the international language is English off course)
Now I don't mind an accent, because 90% of the Dutch people have some sort of accent that betrays where in the country they grew up, but I think the minimum requirement for a succesful career is a good control of the native tongue of your co-workers and customers.
Languages are not THAT hard to master, so in my opinion immigrants have full control over whether or not they become succesful, and it irks me to hear Mexican immigrants into the US, or Arab immigrants into Western Europe complain in Spanish/Arab that they are discriminated against.
Success starts with communication. Learn to speak the language of where ever to wat to spend a considerable amount of time. (I actually support government sponsoring for this, since it seems something that benefits whole societies)
As far as the American situation goes: The poor already have very few rights in the USA. Financial security, good healthcare, and decent education seem to be for middle class and higher only, and sooner or later the masses at the bottom of the pyramid will start asking for their fair share. Whether they are immigrants or ethnic minorities does not seem to me to be the main issue here. |
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