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PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 11, 2017 - 21:33 Reply with quote Back to top

I was talking to a few of my FUMBBL mates one day and debate subject came up.

Is Chaos a Tier 1 team?

We all agree that at low TV they are not.

At what TV do they move into TIER 1?

Is it around 1800 TV when they finally have some CPOMB?

Chime in on when Chaos becomes a Tier 1 team or this all a myth? Chaos CPOMB looks good on paper but in a proper 7-9 round KO format tourney they have no shot.

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garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 11, 2017 - 21:39 Reply with quote Back to top

If Piling On changes are implemented they will never be a tier 1 team.
Under current rules I would think they are behind Wood Elves and Nurgle at high tv. But they are big hitters with reasonable speed. Look back at RandomOracle's days with his team ChuckvsBloodbowl. Fumbbl cup winners. They put many teams beneath their boot. But that example doesn't help your impending buff Chaos suggestion Very Happy

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PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 11, 2017 - 21:46 Reply with quote Back to top

The natural follow up question is this.

When does Nurgle move into Tier 1?

Is Nurgle > Chaos because of regen?

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licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 11, 2017 - 21:53 Reply with quote Back to top

According to the Tiers (stupidly) the only non- T1 teams are stunties, vamps, slanns, and pact.

Yep, everything else is T1.

Pointless to talk about tiers anyway, unless you bother to define what you actually mean by them.

Win rates do vary, but not really by that much within the confidence intervals.
fidius



Joined: Jun 17, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 11, 2017 - 22:13 Reply with quote Back to top

PainState wrote:
Is Nurgle > Chaos because of regen?

Yeah. Plus Foul Appearance for protection. The +AG and +MA of Chaos Warriors (sorry, Chosen Blockers) doesn't seem to compensate for Nurgle Warriors' (sorry, Bloaters') survivability and on-pitch-stayingness ('tude?).

Team trajectories depend entirely on skill access, and how those skills interface with stats. In general, as long as a player has access to the Canon (Block, Dodge, Mighty Blow, Guard, Piling On, Claw, Tackle) he is worth his increase in TV. Once players have taken those skills their effectiveness : cost ratio starts to decline. Every player on a Chaos roster (except Mino) has access to 6/7 canon skills on normals. Same for 8 positionals on Nurgle, and all Linemen on Pact. Basically the better the skill access to Canon (plus AG4 and ST4+ which act as multipliers), the steeper the team trajectory. This also explains why certain teams dominate at low TV -- because they already have Canon attributes, and in the first few levels most players can add Canon to their skillset.

So your question is where do the Nurgle and Chaos trajectories intersect with other teams'. The answer is at the point at which a significant portion of the roster can no longer take Canon skills, and/or their Dodge is negated by prevalent Tackle. One could walk through each team and estimate this I guess. I'll leave this to you! Very Happy

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Wuhan



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jan 11, 2017 - 22:17 Reply with quote Back to top

at what point would you rather play DE vs chaos, and then, Chaos vs DE? The answer is around 140-155tv. So at 150tv chaos are =bbbest
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Jan 11, 2017 - 22:27 Reply with quote Back to top

Wuhan wrote:
at what point would you rather play DE vs chaos, and then, Chaos vs DE? The answer is around 140-155tv. So at 150tv chaos are =bbbest


Ummm, for you. For me, up to 2000 and even then...
uzkulak



Joined: Mar 30, 2004

Post   Posted: Jan 11, 2017 - 23:43 Reply with quote Back to top

yeah, at equal tv DE are always better IMO - Chaos's strength is that they keep on improving even at really high tv and in most league situations will outgrow their opponents.

less PO just means more tackle, guard etc, it might even make Chaos a more effective team.
DrDiscoStu



Joined: Feb 20, 2006

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2017 - 07:21 Reply with quote Back to top

In perpetual leagues I would say it is very obvious that Chaos are a tier 1 side, probably #1 overall.

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zakatan



Joined: May 17, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2017 - 10:25 Reply with quote Back to top

CRP Manual wrote:
Designer's Note: Some teams are more challenging than others to play either because their skills requiring advanced strategies to be effective or because they have difficulty winning. These teams have been designed this way on purpose to give challenges to coaches who master the basics of Fantasy Football. These more challenging teams are: Chaos, Dark Elf, Goblin, Halfling, Khemri, Nurgle, Ogre and Vampire.


I can't help laughing every time I read this. Apparently, Chaos and Nurgle were designed to be specially hard to play, along with Ogres, Dark Elves and Goblins.

They didn't do a great job though, since a trained bonobo can do well with chaos after a few skills are acquired.

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D_Arquebus



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2017 - 11:07 Reply with quote Back to top

It takes more then a few skills for them both to competitive.

And Table Top (arguably what they had in mind when they were writing the rules) makes it significantly harder to rack up 30+ games let alone the 100+ mark people can run up on here Smile

If anything the real hang over from previous rules is the Dark Elves. They are probably the most forgiving Elf team these days.

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zakatan



Joined: May 17, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2017 - 11:47 Reply with quote Back to top

I actually think that Chaos are decent from the get-go and become super powerful from 1600TV upwards, or even with the star+fodder lower tv setups (aka filthy powergaming or minmaxing).

With the new developments and no PO in the killstack they can still be very bloody, since claw+mb is good, but it will require some more coaching. Anyway, if you swap all those PO with Guard, they are still a frightsome opponent at high TV.

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Wreckage



Joined: Aug 15, 2004

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2017 - 11:53 Reply with quote Back to top

zakatan wrote:
I actually think that Chaos are decent from the get-go

They are not. On the top of my head I can't think of a race that starts out weaker. Halflings can beat them.
Ogres probably too.. .
zakatan



Joined: May 17, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2017 - 12:24 Reply with quote Back to top

Wreckage wrote:
zakatan wrote:
I actually think that Chaos are decent from the get-go

They are not. On the top of my head I can't think of a race that starts out weaker. Halflings can beat them.
Ogres probably too.. .


I was toying with the stats and I have to conceed you a point here. Chaos have a poor winrate at the rookie stage (1000-1100 TV) of 45% in R and 48% in B. I don't know how much of this stat is contaminated by minmaxers in B.

Still, they are in the realm of Tier 2 rookie teams (slann, high elves, underworld, nurgle...) with a 45~50 winrate, and far above the usual Tier 3 suspects (ogres, goblins, halflings, vampires) that reside at the ~35% winrate.

Oddly enough, they only get a positive winrate above 1600 in B and 1800TV in B, and it's not so hot (51% R and 54% B at >1800TV).

In comparison, all Elven races have ~60% winrates at >1800TV.

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Desultory



Joined: Jun 24, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2017 - 12:36 Reply with quote Back to top

Wreckage wrote:

They are not. On the top of my head I can't think of a race that starts out weaker. Halflings can beat them.
Ogres probably too.. .


Usually I hang on your every blood bowl word, but Rookie Halflings stronger than rookie chaos. That seems unlikely to me.
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