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mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Nov 15, 2018 - 19:53 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
If you like Box, play in the Box.
If you don't like Ranked, don't play in it.


And let go of the good feels of contorting yourself in ridiculous ways to justify your sense of self? Never!
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 15, 2018 - 20:17 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
If you like Box, play in the Box.
If you don't like Ranked, don't play in it.

Thanks for your oh-so-great pearl of wisdom, but I already play in the Box, no need to tell me.
My point is that with such a small community it would be better to gather all coaches in one competitive division.
That would make competition fairer (all games arranged and played under the same conditions), rankings more meaningful, and would increase the traffic of games played (because the more people activate in a matchmaking division, the more matches are scheduled).

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Nov 15, 2018 - 20:52 Reply with quote Back to top

It may also reduce the number of games as some people won't want to play in the Box.

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Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: Nov 15, 2018 - 21:10 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:

The best course of action (edit)for me personally(/edit)would be deleting Ranked and allowing Black Box only for competitive play but it won't happen.


and there are very good reasons why it won't happen. The biggest being it would stop being real bloodbowl. And with that, fumbbl would go extinct by this time next year.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 16, 2018 - 14:19 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
It may also reduce the number of games as some people won't want to play in the Box.

Those people could play in League.
Do you want to climb the rankings and play the Majors?
Play in the Box so the coach's rankings are calculated under the same conditions (therefore more accurate and more meaningful to assess coaches' skill, as rankings are supposed to do) and your team is not built through picking.

You don't like the Box?
You can play in League, no problem for me if you pick/dodge there as long as you don't earn CR and don't play the Majors. You can even play many tutorial games vs the same coach, no need to respect the 1/10 game rule as in Ranked.

It's really very simple, but I know that there is no interest in stopping picking and even getting CR points for it, so it won't happen.

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PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 16, 2018 - 15:35 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:


Do you want to climb the rankings and play the Majors?


Well, imho the vast majority of coaches could care less what their CR ranking is.

All coaches who play in R/B can always play in any Major in R/B.

Also IMO if you are looking at a 2600TV team does it really matter if it was built up in R or B? The team is pimped out at 2600TV and I do not want to hear about only Ranked teams get TV bloat.

It just sounds like you are a bitter dude who wants everyone to conform to your view of the norm of how Blood Bowl should be arranged and played.

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PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 16, 2018 - 15:39 Reply with quote Back to top

Dang it..ok, I will say it.

The main reason teams can bloat up to 3000+ tv is because they play in the box. Ranked teams once they hit a high TV find it very difficult to just find a match. Box is so much easier when it comes to team building compared to Ranked.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 16, 2018 - 16:07 Reply with quote Back to top

I play a lot in the Box and I don't see 3000+ TV teams honestly, feel free to check yourself looking at the game page if you don't trust me.
Anyway, teams that can choose opponents have clearly a different path: they can face only the races/coaches they want, avoiding the most bashy/good ones while they put the finishing touches on their teams before a Major. This is an advantage that Box coaches don't have, they have to play whatever team/whoever coach they get.

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MenonaLoco



Joined: Jan 05, 2016

Post   Posted: Nov 16, 2018 - 16:17 Reply with quote Back to top

A few thoughts and questions:

1) Did a ranked picker ever win a major? If so, link the proof please! I would say picking and inflating a team can carry you over 1 or maybe rounds, but eventually a picker runs against a good coach and inevitably loses. I try to figure out, if pickers have had a significant impact on tournaments, other than increasing the participation.

2) Not every coach enters a tournament with the expectation to win it all, and some may only be able to build a high tv-team by careful matchups in ranked. If you take this option away, wouldnt you have less participation?

3) I made my nurgle team box, because in ranked i wouldnt get any games. Now in box i can just keep them rolling over unfortunate victims (i mostly activate my lizard and high elf team in box lately, but still, you get the point). This is proof for PainState's point. I get true clawmb-derangement-syndrome from time to time by box-oponents Razz Once the oponent would just buy mercs, apos, babes, put 3 mercs on the los and stay at the back of the pitch all game long without moving. Does that sound competitive to you?

4) In box you don't pick the oponent, but you can still minmax and get easy games. Just play low tv undead all the time, or minmax other teams to low tv, 0-1 reroll, leader, 1 killer, etc. and go hunt all those newer teams. Or steamroll a high tv bash team - not many times you get an balanced match, at least cas-wise.

5) Without the boxchallenge, there wouldnt be much variety in box. In ranked at least some people try something new, something stupid äh stunty, something weird like all-lino-teams, etc., which seems to be a rare sight in box.

6) How is the history of matchmaking in bb? First you got the tt-game, and ask a friend, if he wants to play, and who plays what team. Then you get tt-leagues started, normally scheduled. With the computer games came other matchmaking processes, but most of them are something like the ranked "negotiation". So, isn't this kind of approach how bloodbowl was mostly meant to be?

7) Where is the drawback for coexisting with ranked pickers? Pickers hurt themselves most. When you pick you might do it, because you want to win more games than you would with tougher matchups. For whatever reason. Get your CR up, or just because you can't stand more losing, of for being able to grow your teams faster, etc. Whatever the reason may be, it has 2 major results: They stick around - while they wouldnt in a 100% box environment, and they don't learn as much as they could playing tougher games, so whenever they participate in a major, some non-picker trashes them eventually.
Only drawback i know has nothing to do with competetivity and tournament justice, etc., but with the community growth: Pickers tend to prey on new members, destroy them and then many of them don't stay. But same thing for box, when you run into minmaxed teams, etc. Do i miss another drawback, or why is this relaly an issue?

Cool There is a big difference of playing an agile team in ranked or in box, because even if yu are a good coach, you sometimes need a recovery match, get some guys out of the hospital, stop a downward injury spiral, etc. In every tournament most teams, and more so agility teams get to the point where injuries pile up. In ranked you may at least get your team prepared before the tournament, which after some games may not seem to have helped much, but at least you feel you can do something for the team before getting into the meatgrinder. In box you dont know, if your "preparation match" would turn out to be another slaughter. So, whats the goal here? Less variety? Of those who would stay after deleting ranked, how many would still enter ag-teams for tournaments?

9) A ranked coach, who defeats one or more box coaches in a major - doesnt he proof wrong any picker-accusations by defeating the "competetive" coaches?

10) Not everybody has to approach the game the same way as you, you know? Not everybody has to prepare for a tournament the same way. And that's alright. You may invite people into more box playing, you may encourage, but downtalking the other option is not the most efficient way to get more people into box. Box-trophy got more people into box - your disapproval of gamefinder didnt. What's wrong with different options for different people, and why would a different option not be worthy of tournaments?
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 16, 2018 - 16:18 Reply with quote Back to top

PainState wrote:
The main reason teams can bloat up to 3000+ tv is because they play in the box. Ranked teams once they hit a high TV find it very difficult to just find a match. Box is so much easier when it comes to team building compared to Ranked.
I don't have the mental capacity to do this right now, but it would be very easy for one reasonably savvy person to resolve this debate in a few minutes, or for a brute-force method that would take maybe half an hour.

My knowledge here is a few months old. I've been having health problems that have pretty much reduced my entire gaming world to NBFL (even had to suspend my D&D game). But the current format was pretty mature when I had to stop, so I can't be that far off.

IME, religious picking in Ranked can help you develop and retain a team that does something that accomplishes a reasonable objective in an optimal value range approaching about 2.2 million, give or take a little. You can beef up a little going into a major if you want, by adding "only money" TV like RRs or reserves or whatever. But if you want to get over 2.5 million, you can't reliably do it in Ranked. Box, you have less choice over what exactly you face, but in a world without ClawPOMB, serious attrition isn't a huge factor if you build and play with a longevity-oriented strategy.

Picking for longevity is possible: you can try to game teams so you don't face damage skills, and you can game opponents so you don't face coaches who know how to lay down the pain. These guys are out there, I know because they avoid me religiously (and sometimes hilariously). But I also know their teams, and they can't build for majors unless they plan on winning with inducements. They have to play little psych games with their rosters. Like, the goldbrickers who don't like MB/T, they pretty much have to play lightweight teams and either keep them at low TV or get used to constant elfball, while the CR pickers have to live with bad reputations such that they can't rise high in TV before they have a hard time finding people who haven't heard of them.

So, yeah, you can game your win % and CR a little in Ranked, but any fairly astute FUMBBL coach can evaluate them a little. I mean, they're not totally meaningless ("Legend vs Experienced" generally favors the Legend), but they only make sense given a little context. As for building the perfect team, honestly, there are a lot of ways to establish longevity (race, development, style) and few of them have to do with gaming open formats. Even scheduled leagues evolve over a span of seasons so that if you establish an insane level of longevity your jealous neighbors will work OT to find a way to thwart it sooner or later.

TL;DR: gaming for longevity at high TV is more about keeping your eyes on your own paper than about trying to establish an optimum opponent mix. Ranked is a great place to "pick" a "breather game" (though we all know how that turns out sometimes), but if you want to build by picking, it's not so good.

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JellyBelly



Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Post   Posted: Nov 16, 2018 - 17:30 Reply with quote Back to top

@Painstate: why bother playing in Ranked at all then? Given that Ranked CR is meaningless and it's not easier to build teams for tourneys then in Box.

By your own arguments, it sounds like Ranked is a rather pointless division. Why on Earth would I want to play there then?

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JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 16, 2018 - 17:36 Reply with quote Back to top

PainState is overstating the "Ranked CR is meaningless" claim. Ranked CR is meaningful, but only in appropriate context. Sussing out your own viable sense of "relative coaching skill" is an important ability as a FUMBBL coach, and Ranked CR is a nice tool for doing this. It's just not a single stat that says, "this is how good the coach is."

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What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and Tackle Zones; reddened blades of grass.
Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: Nov 16, 2018 - 17:59 Reply with quote Back to top

JellyBelly wrote:
By your own arguments, it sounds like Ranked is a rather pointless division. Why on Earth would I want to play there then?


Kinda like "why play Box when you have Instant Smack Tournaments?"

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MonkeyMan576



Joined: Jul 02, 2008

Post   Posted: Nov 16, 2018 - 18:11 Reply with quote Back to top

I prefer ranked myself.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Nov 16, 2018 - 18:49 Reply with quote Back to top

Some of this involves intent as a coach - and some are very adept at building teams and they either consciously or subconsciously play the game based around that latent intent. Speaking from experience Wink Doesn't matter the venue.
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