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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2020 - 13:24 Reply with quote Back to top

Yes, even the Season Redraft system looks like a clunky addition for low benefit.
There were many ways to keep in check the growth of teams, if that was the designers' concern: for example, reducing the skills per player to 4-5 max, adding a max TV cap, tweaking some rosters (because, if there is less growth, it's not fair that Chaos Nurgle and Vampires lack core skills), reducing the SPPs gained/increasing the SPPs necessary to level up.
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2020 - 13:50 Reply with quote Back to top

I never said it was broken as much as an unnecessary advantage which now have been closed down to dedicated throwers only. I don't see this as a particular problem with the new rules in any way.

The only problem that I see is that dedicated throwers now are worse off throwing the ball than they were before in general, that is the only issue I have.

I think the change to the passing stat is only a matter of getting used to. Even if it impact some teams more than others overall that will mean very little. But making passing overall more unreliable even for dedicated throwers seem like a bad move to me.
stej



Joined: Jan 05, 2009

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2020 - 13:57 Reply with quote Back to top

So, have we all agreed that passing is worse now?
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2020 - 14:38 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Yes, even the Season Redraft system looks like a clunky addition for low benefit.
There were many ways to keep in check the growth of teams, if that was the designers' concern: for example, reducing the skills per player to 4-5 max, adding a max TV cap, tweaking some rosters (because, if there is less growth, it's not fair that Chaos Nurgle and Vampires lack core skills), reducing the SPPs gained/increasing the SPPs necessary to level up.


This has been the core issue in ALL of Blood Bowl history. The game was always designed for smaller leagues between small to mid size player groups using the board game.
The adaptation to internet and digital was always a fan thing until the Blood Bowl PC game which suddenly allowed very large leagues. Perpetual leagues have always been a thing that does not work well other than as a training ground for basic Blood Bowl, in my opinion.

In the olden days when we where young and we had decently large groups of people to play in a League setting we always conjured up rules to keep teams from growing out of control.

I think it is good if there are official rules for how this work... individual groups of people can still use house rules to play the way they like.

Blood Bowl teams have always been best balanced around mid development anyway so if there is an official system that "fix" this I think that is good. It does not mean every player group needs to follow it as house rules is a perfectly legit way to play.

Personally I have always enjoyed the period of between around 1300-1600TV the best and that seem to be where the designers league rule seem to be pointing to as well, so I'm happy with this.

Another thing that has been an unbalancing factor is random stats increases for skill upgrades... now stat increases will be allot more rare, especially for standard board game leagues where a season might be maybe 8-12 games or so. Only some select few players will ever earn enough SPP to gain enough to roll for a stat increase and probably only on players you intend to keep around for a few seasons.

These are obviously only my personal opinions. The book don't state how long a season must last and it also clearly state that the cap for redraft at 1300 is only a suggestion.

In my opinion the game become more and more broken the more skills that are added to a team above a certain amount... it is sort of a grey area where the limits are hard to fix.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2020 - 15:23 Reply with quote Back to top

Yes, but some teams now are quite pointless to play. Chaos, Nurgle, Vampires without enough development struggle.
I agree that low-mid TV is where the game is most balanced (or least unbalanced), my problem is that some tier 2 teams are less appealing now.
From no brain high TV Cpomb Chaos to low TV rookie Chaos there could have been a nice in-between solution. Chaos could start with 1 random mutation on Chosen or a couple of Block Beastmen (called Bestigors), for example. New Pro is nice for Vampires but before they get Blodge Pro they will have to redraft.
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2020 - 16:16 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Yes, but some teams now are quite pointless to play. Chaos, Nurgle, Vampires without enough development struggle.
I agree that low-mid TV is where the game is most balanced (or least unbalanced), my problem is that some tier 2 teams are less appealing now.
From no brain high TV Cpomb Chaos to low TV rookie Chaos there could have been a nice in-between solution. Chaos could start with 1 random mutation on Chosen or a couple of Block Beastmen (called Bestigors), for example. New Pro is nice for Vampires but before they get Blodge Pro they will have to redraft.


In my opinion Chaos only struggle until they get a couple of skills on their team... they do have really good players otherwise.

Once you start to redraft you should be able to keep enough players for Chaos to be quite viable now even from start of a season.

Chaos teams really benefit from taking random skills, not just mutations, especially on Beastmen. You then rehire mostly good and key player Beastmen and just get plain Warriors at the start of every seasons.

They are still a Tier 2 team so they should be a bit more tricky to play than the Tier 1 teams in general.

In most of our local leagues I would consider a player with two chosen skills or maybe an added random to be a decently developed player.

Only players that you keep for many seasons would ever develop to be a Legendary player with mostly selected skills and stat increases.

The thing is that if a team have one or two really good players and the rest are just mediocre or rookies those player carry the team and that is a liability too... so it will be interesting to see how things pan out.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2020 - 16:23 Reply with quote Back to top

CAB wrote:

Chaos teams really benefit from taking random skills, not just mutations, especially on Beastmen. You then rehire mostly good and key player Beastmen and just get plain Warriors at the start of every seasons.

Honestly, it' really sad to start with plain Chosen every season, in my opinion. They are supposed to be the signature players of the team (Chaos Chosen).
Also, while you are trying to skill up your rookie players, Dwarf teams will have Block, Tackle and Guard on many players.
Good luck playing vs them with Chaos! Very Happy
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2020 - 16:30 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
CAB wrote:

Chaos teams really benefit from taking random skills, not just mutations, especially on Beastmen. You then rehire mostly good and key player Beastmen and just get plain Warriors at the start of every seasons.

Honestly, it' really sad to start with plain Chosen every season, in my opinion. They are supposed to be the signature players of the team (Chaos Chosen).
Also, while you are trying to skill up your rookie players, Dwarf teams will have Block, Tackle and Guard on many players.
Good luck playing vs them with Chaos! Very Happy


To be honest... starting Dwarf is not that hard to play against... low agility and speed is really limiting on Dwarves. The key against Dwarves is spreading your team out which give you a huge advantage.

Dwarves in my opinion is not the hardest opponent for Chaos. In my opinion I would struggle allot more against teams such as Elves or Humans as I have little in the way to counter their strengths as these teams are both faster and have better skills than I do. The little strength advantage I have is hard to leverage against these teams at that point.
neubau



Joined: Nov 12, 2016

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2020 - 16:31 Reply with quote Back to top

CAB wrote:
Chaos teams really benefit from taking random skills, not just mutations, especially on Beastmen.


a player without block taking randoms? i sure enjoy my fend, stand firm beastman.

beastmen need a very specific set of skills for their different rolls (wrestle, tackle or block, mighty blow, or block two heads etc) and taking randoms before you have a reliable blocking presence is just not feasible. you said earlier that bb is a game of reducing risks, why cant you see that here?

and even if you have built a decent core, with the redraft you might not be able to keep these players and be in a perpetual rebuild, which really limits the teams dakka listed.

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Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2020 - 16:44 Reply with quote Back to top

Well we certainly seem to be veering off topic with this discussion.

I was looking at my cutting my Nurgle team down to 1350.
4 Bloaters; 2 Pestigor; 5 Rotters; 2 TRR
Skilled players Blodge, SH, +AG Pest and 3 Warriors with 2-5 skills each.

That is probably an alright season two team but not sure I would then bring them back for Season 3. For the local league this would be fine but there is no incentive to actually play the team again and again in a perpetual league.

Overall I am still looking forward to the new rules and it will be interesting to see if people do fine a way to make low value chaos work. Perhaps you can just hire the same 2-3 players for six season and murder everyone?

Sadly Dwarfs with random Str skills on Lino (just rehire those that get Guard) and a Runner who can hog SPP for Stat increase does look to be a power team for the new meta. I guess it is finally time to play them...
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2020 - 16:49 Reply with quote Back to top

neubau wrote:
CAB wrote:
Chaos teams really benefit from taking random skills, not just mutations, especially on Beastmen.


a player without block taking randoms? i sure enjoy my fend, stand firm beastman.

beastmen need a very specific set of skills for their different rolls (wrestle, tackle or block, mighty blow, or block two heads etc) and taking randoms before you have a reliable blocking presence is just not feasible. you said earlier that bb is a game of reducing risks, why cant you see that here?

and even if you have built a decent core, with the redraft you might not be able to keep these players and be in a perpetual rebuild, which really limits the teams dakka listed.


I have played in a league format for the last couple of months and taking random is not a s bad as it sounds... you get skills earlier and you can build on them by picking a second one depending on what skill you rolled.

My experience so far is that you do both... you select some that gain allot of SPP and select skills for them... but sometimes you will have a player that just sits on 4 SPP and it might take many games for them to get anything else... you don't risk that and select a random mutation or general skill... you then might pick the second skill depending on that roll.

When it comes to redraft you pick and choose those players that have the best more beneficial skills for a new team... perhaps you rolled a random Wrestle and picked Tackle... that is a pretty solid 90k beast... or maybe rolled Tackle and selected MB for a good damage dealer...

Now it is about opportunity. In a setting where a player might be stuck on 4 SPP for half a season you are better of just taking a random skill and if you are lucky you might get a second random or even luckier to pick a second skill.

In a Chaos team you will likely try to groom a few Beastmen by scoring and those are the ones that get to pick their skills and become your Blitzers and Runners etc...

In a league where a season run for 10 games (as an example) your rookie warriors will struggle to get even one skill unless they are lucky to receive some MVP and Casualties... but not everyone of them will get there. In general I would like to get selected skills on them, but can I wait for that, especially if I know before hand I will not redraft them?!?
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2020 - 16:56 Reply with quote Back to top

The Chosen look like the poor Beastmen's brothers... doomed to be cycled and never develop.
If I have to take Block, Guard on them then fire them, well I play Orcs instead, with 4 ST 4 and 4 starting Block players + AV 9 across the team.
In theory playing Chaos should be about rolling random mutations and adapting the gameplay to them.
This Chaos looks really dull, and not bashy either.


Last edited by MattDakka on Nov 30, 2020 - 17:01; edited 2 times in total
Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2020 - 16:58 Reply with quote Back to top

There is a topic about Chaos development (or lack of) in Tactics. Probably best to move that discussion over - https://fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=31657
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2020 - 17:48 Reply with quote Back to top

Lyracian wrote:
There is a topic about Chaos development (or lack of) in Tactics. Probably best to move that discussion over - https://fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=31657


I feel the passing subject seem to be done for now... and you are correct, we should stay on topic.. Smile
neubau



Joined: Nov 12, 2016

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2020 - 18:17 Reply with quote Back to top

CAB wrote:
zip


thanks for confirming chaos are pretty unfun now.

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