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Doofr



Joined: Nov 04, 2015

Post   Posted: Dec 01, 2020 - 20:22 Reply with quote Back to top

CAB wrote:
Doofr wrote:

Thats nothing to do with High TV.

Sometimes i realy have the feeling that you work in aftersales for GW.

You like all the new rules, you are explaining each time how their meaning is an advancement for the gameplay.
And you knew all the rules in advance.

If its not the case, you should ask GW to hire you and pay you to try to convince people on forums how good the new rules are. Wink


Sure it has all to do with high TV and loads of MB, DP and Guard players in a team and all of the skills on the same players. That is for most teams at relatively high TV.


No

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CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 01, 2020 - 22:36 Reply with quote Back to top

Doofr wrote:

No


Because what you say does not line up with what I see in the game at lower TV. Most teams don't have MB together with enough block at low to mid development. Some teams... sure... but far from many.

Just because a player have MB does not mean that is the player knocking down a player either... If there is no MB involved the chance of knock out is not great, even on AV 7 players and that is the best scenario.

I have just made a quick headcount on the probability... I think there is about a 60% chance that at least one player is knocked out if they all are AV7 and knocked down by MB players all of them.

You then can add fouling and a Blitz to that...

Has it happened that I have two players knocked out (or worse) in the first turn... sure it happens (even three players)... but it certainly does not happen often, sometimes NO player is knocked out. It is far more common NO player is knocked out than two by far (not counting fouling, which don't always happen in many games on turn one).

I have played enough Norse and Skaven to know I don't regularly have two knocked out player in each defensive drive on turn one.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 01, 2020 - 23:03 Reply with quote Back to top

except.. in current rules, a dwarf team can achieve the required number of mighty blows with less than 1100 tv. That is NOT high tv.

The redraft rules as they stand, will direct a fair number of people to play dwarves. This may not become the meta, and they may not become the best team - but at first glance, many people will think they are going to be strong with these rules. Therefore, this will absolutely continue to occur.. at low tv.
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 01, 2020 - 23:21 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
except.. in current rules, a dwarf team can achieve the required number of mighty blows with less than 1100 tv. That is NOT high tv.

The redraft rules as they stand, will direct a fair number of people to play dwarves. This may not become the meta, and they may not become the best team - but at first glance, many people will think they are going to be strong with these rules. Therefore, this will absolutely continue to occur.. at low tv.


Sure... some few teams will have lot's of MB... personally I don't care if a few teams might have out of what almost 30 teams now... I have lost count on the number of teams available.

In most leagues that I have ever played at people does not tend to pick the same races. I understand this is an online thing in a matchmaking system... I don't personally consider that an environment the rule system is built for... but if it so happen that everyone are playing Dwarves that would become boring very quickly i reckon.

Personally it is just fine to play a few players down against Dwarves... they need it to usually have a decent chance at winning with their abysmal movement anyway.

If I joined a league and 30% were Dwarves I would leave the league out of boredom or perhaps just play Undead/Necro and laugh them all in the face... Wink
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 01, 2020 - 23:40 Reply with quote Back to top

right but my point was that 'cas and removal' is not what defines high tv play. Doofr is going to miss high tv play for far more than that. cas and removal happens to be one aspect that for some teams will increase as tv get higher, but that doesn't define high tv, nor does it define what will be missed with us losing high tv
neubau



Joined: Nov 12, 2016

Post   Posted: Dec 01, 2020 - 23:43 Reply with quote Back to top

CAB, why come to a site thats dedicated on the online play of bloodbowl if you dont partake it? i really dont get the point.

you argue against anything critical towards the new edition, we cant estimate your "experience" with bloodbowl thus have to take you by your word and your hot takes are sometimes so wrong it hurts. doofrs "no" is spot on. your "enough games" statement seems less and less likely, coaches with thousands of games outright calling your takes nonsense should be a hint. in short: who are you and whats your deal on fumbbl? i dont want to partake in the conspiracy theories, but ... i dont know man, why?

anyway, your average bash team (dorfs, chorfs, orcs, ...) can have multiple mb, guard and dp/sg before they hit 1400 or even 1300, especially with chosen instead of rolled skills for the sneaky git. teams on offense are never passive and if they get the advantage by removals first they can often keep this advantage over the length of the half and continue to bash 'n' foul. you dont need 4 or 5 players to protect the ball, look up screening. if you put a lot of players into gangfouling on defense you most likely leave a side open to advance towards the touchline.

even with no or little removals it takes a couple of turns for the defense to recover into an even state, because stuns, contact with the prone players and keeping your important players out of harms way decide the positioning, not a possible foul target.

EDIT (since you posted again while i wrote this):

CAB wrote:

I don't personally consider that an environment the rule system is built for... but if it so happen that everyone are playing Dwarves that would become boring very quickly i reckon.


WHY ARE YOU HERE?

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Dec 01, 2020 - 23:49 Reply with quote Back to top

Well, he could be interested in playing in a private league with his friends here on FUMBBL and not interested in perpetual league MM.
That said, weird he played 0 games so far with that account from 2003. Not a crime, of course it's not mandatory to play games here, but weird.
argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Dec 02, 2020 - 00:10 Reply with quote Back to top

[quote="Garion"]
koadah wrote:
I

You get +1 with dp. Sg = 1 in6 chance of sending off (


Ref do not eject the player only if double is done on the armour roll. If double is done on injury roll the risk to be ejected is
0,5 (50% of probability to double 2D6 on the injury table)
*
(probability NOT doing a 6 in argue's call= 5/6) --> 0,4 -->
40% of probability to be sent out in case armour roll is success (and so also your opponent very likely go out)

You are not spout if you double in the armour roll, but if you do not succeed the armour roll nothing vs you, nothing vs your opponent.
For sure player with SG +DP will foul every single turn and in this case the probability to be sent out after two turn increase over 50%.

If I have correctly understood the new rules
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 02, 2020 - 00:30 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Well, he could be interested in playing in a private league with his friends here on FUMBBL and not interested in perpetual league MM.
That said, weird he played 0 games so far with that account from 2003. Not a crime, of course it's not mandatory to play games here, but weird.


Yes... this is basically it... with everyone being locked down there is little stuff moving in the BB world.

I might be interested in playing in a league... probably not in open matchmaking.

I have been playing on FUMBBL before but it is a VERY long time ago... might have been under a different account.

I suppose talking Blood Bowl is OK on a site dedicated to Blood Bowl... even if most are playing matchmaking which I have little interest in. My opinions are heavily skewed at League play.

I also understand that I might sound a bit pretentious as I don't think matchmaking and high TV is fun Blood Bowl and not what I think the game is either balanced around or designed for... but I think that is true, but I apologise for that... I don't want to troll anyone.

I just find it odd that people complain how unbalanced things are when they play in a way the game (in my opinion) never was designed for. I don't see any reason for why you can play it or even enjoy it that way... but some house rules or regulation outside the standard game mechanic might be needed for balance in some type of environments.

I do think that matchmaking if you add the drafting probably will be better balanced than the old match making... at least the one in BB2 is horrible. I only play about 10 games per team and then remake them from scratch.

Sorry to steer off topic... but I'm not trolling anyone and I try to give some valid thoughts to what I think might make matchmaking better and perhaps even I would like to try it. Wink
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 02, 2020 - 00:40 Reply with quote Back to top

neubau wrote:
CAB, why come to a site thats dedicated on the online play of bloodbowl if you dont partake it? i really dont get the point.

you argue against anything critical towards the new edition, we cant estimate your "experience" with bloodbowl thus have to take you by your word and your hot takes are sometimes so wrong it hurts. doofrs "no" is spot on. your "enough games" statement seems less and less likely, coaches with thousands of games outright calling your takes nonsense should be a hint. in short: who are you and whats your deal on fumbbl? i dont want to partake in the conspiracy theories, but ... i dont know man, why?

anyway, your average bash team (dorfs, chorfs, orcs, ...) can have multiple mb, guard and dp/sg before they hit 1400 or even 1300, especially with chosen instead of rolled skills for the sneaky git. teams on offense are never passive and if they get the advantage by removals first they can often keep this advantage over the length of the half and continue to bash 'n' foul. you dont need 4 or 5 players to protect the ball, look up screening. if you put a lot of players into gangfouling on defense you most likely leave a side open to advance towards the touchline.

even with no or little removals it takes a couple of turns for the defense to recover into an even state, because stuns, contact with the prone players and keeping your important players out of harms way decide the positioning, not a possible foul target.

EDIT (since you posted again while i wrote this):

WHY ARE YOU HERE?


I don't disagree with you at all... this is exactly what I meant with playing passively or not. If you put pressure on the opponent they will not be able to foul you. At least not any good fouls.

Screening is something I basically always do... I never cage the ball unless that is absolutely necessary. I even entice a sack when I know they can't capitalise on it to split their team and get some juicy foul victims.. Wink

I know full well what a powerful Orc or Dwarf team can do and also how to counter it if necessary... it depends entirely on what you play with.

The key to combat a screen is trying to split their team. If they are slow then moving from side to side to pressure them is good... if you are strong then splitting them in the midfield can work well and so on... there are many tactics available to you... but this is not a tactics thread is it. Smile
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Dec 02, 2020 - 00:48 Reply with quote Back to top

BB is unbalanced even in private leagues. I played in 3, and killer teams developed like in perpetual MM, with enough games.
Of course, if you play a league made by 8 games you will not notice the unbalances for the simple reasons multiple skill stacks and stat freaks will not be possible or very rare.
But that is not because BB is balanced for league, but because many flaws don't appear in short leagues (which are the most common in real life TT BB).
Short leagues have other issues, i.e. top tier 1 teams are better than the teams requiring time to develop. That means a reduced variety of competitive teams playable, if your goal is winning the league.
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 02, 2020 - 01:03 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
BB is unbalanced even in private leagues. I played in 3, and killer teams developed like in perpetual MM, with enough games.
Of course, if you play a league made by 8 games you will not notice the unbalances for the simple reasons multiple skill stacks and stat freaks will not be possible or very rare.
But that is not because BB is balanced for league, but because many flaws don't appear in short leagues (which are the most common in real life TT BB).
Short leagues have other issues, i.e. top tier 1 teams are better than the teams requiring more time to develop.


I think that is what I'm trying to convey... the game are fundamentally not designed to play 20-30 games a season... I do think that about 15 games are stretching it to the limits. Teams balance will start to spiral out of control after this more and more.

If matchmaking should stay balanced for the majority of teams in the game then I think teams should stay in the 5-15 game development state as much as possible.

In my opinion that probably would produce the most fun environment for most of the teams. This is just a guess from my side though.

I also understand that not everyone would like it to be that way and do like the less balanced version of the game. I do think that overall in BB2020 it is slightly less violent, but only just a little.
Grod



Joined: Sep 30, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 02, 2020 - 01:07 Reply with quote Back to top

I think there is an interesting interplay between the updated sneaky git skill and some of the rule changes with regards to "Jump" actions.

On the one hand, "Jump" actions appear designed to unclog the line of scrimmage and require defences to spread further down field using a defence in depth approach (because a single line of defence is too easily penetrated.

On the other hand, a clogged line of scrimmage is often the best way to prevent high +n player gang fouls on your players. So now when defending, you have to choose between the lesser of 2 evils - defend deeply and let your team be gang fouled, or defend tightly on the scrimmage line, prevent easy nasty fouls, but risk the other team pouring in to your back field.

It's also worth noting that sneaky git is an agility skill. That means we will see it quickly and mostly on lineman that have agility access - elves and stunties. The road for, say, a zombie to get sneaky git is quite long - you have to save up the SPP not just get a lucky double - and they will be targetted on the field once they have it.

Humans, Orcs and Black Orcs are three interesting teams for having easy access to a cheap stunty sneaky git, and the bashing prowess to set up fouls.

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Dec 02, 2020 - 01:26 Reply with quote Back to top

CAB wrote:

I think that is what I'm trying to convey... the game are fundamentally not designed to play 20-30 games a season...


There is the problem. The previous version worked well enough to highish TV.

The new rules ruin higher TV to provide marginal if any improvement to lower TV that was already pretty good in the first place.

So, from that point of view, the new rules are a steaming turd.

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CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 02, 2020 - 01:31 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
CAB wrote:

I think that is what I'm trying to convey... the game are fundamentally not designed to play 20-30 games a season...


There is the problem. The previous version worked well enough to highish TV.

The new rules ruin higher TV to provide marginal if any improvement to lower TV that was already pretty good in the first place.

So, from that point of view, the new rules are a steaming turd.


What in the new rules will make high TV not good or roughly equal to BB2016 if I may ask?

**EDIT**

No let's not discuss this anymore in this thread... Wink
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