122 coaches online • Server time: 20:48
Index Search Usergroups Profile
Log in
Recent Forum Topics goto Post How to make custom p...goto Post College of Magic Tou...goto Post Idea to boost the us...
SearchSearch 
Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic
Poll
Will bb2020 changes make you retire from fumbbl?
Never, fumbbl 4eva!
75%
 75%  [ 274 ]
Completely retire
1%
 1%  [ 6 ]
Retire except still do league
8%
 8%  [ 30 ]
Retire except still do some tournaments
0%
 0%  [ 2 ]
Undecided
14%
 14%  [ 52 ]
Total Votes : 364


Wozzaa



Joined: Apr 23, 2016

Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2021 - 05:02 Reply with quote Back to top

The stars will be back very soon.

I think all the stars from BB2016 will be added to Season Two really soon.

I am hoping for a second edition style Starplayer Book'. That would be awesome. But even if there isn't a book, the stars will be back.

_________________
ImageImage
Wolbum



Joined: Jul 14, 2010

Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2021 - 06:14 Reply with quote Back to top

Wozzaa wrote:
The stars will be back very soon.

I think all the stars from BB2016 will be added to Season Two really soon.

I am hoping for a second edition style Starplayer Book'. That would be awesome. But even if there isn't a book, the stars will be back.


What makes you so convinced Wozzaa? I'd imagine "very" soon is another 5 months.
ImBatman



Joined: Aug 07, 2020

Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2021 - 10:19 Reply with quote Back to top

I guess I share many similarities to a lot of people commenting here, I'm old, so I've played every iteration of Bloodbowl since the days of cardboards cut outs, and I joined Fumbbl as a result of the pandemic so I could carry on playing games.
Fumbbl is fab and I can't imagine not playing it going forward although probably at a reduced rate simply because I won't have the time anymore.
I have, however, managed to continue playing in the real world, some of my friends and I use whatsapp or similar to play face to face as it were using the new version of the game and my feeling is that the game plays in a very similar way.
Amongst others I run a goblin team and I am being a little more thoughtful with my fouls and one of the other players runs a Wood elf team and he is now taking a thrower where he might not have done otherwise, but he's still throwing the ball all over and I'm still causing chaos and carnage, which is fine with me. The Human team plays almost the same as far as I can tell and so does the Chaos.
We aren't keen on going back to random MVP, which undoubtedly does slow down team progression, but it's the same for everyone so I think it remains fair.
You probably guessed, I'm not ultra competitive and I actually like that the new rules adhere perhaps a little closer to the fluff, every good Elf team in the Lore has a SP thrower, not just some random Lineman and so that fits nicely, and they can still dodge and catch almost at will.
I guess it's each to their own, I don't mind change and I will adapt to any new system as long as I'm playing games and I don't see that there are any more or less "unplayable" teams than before, but I wouldn't bet money on that and some of you guys and gals clearly have more competitive experience than myself so I will bow to your greater knowledge.
Please be nice to each other, play the game you love and I prey that Nuffle is kind to you.
Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2021 - 11:17 Reply with quote Back to top

DrDeath wrote:
I’ve played since 1st edition, and seen a lot of rules changes over the years.

Basically, I believe the following new game mechanics are just awful because:

There is a lot in your post! I am not a fan of all the changes but though I would put an alternative view on some of these.

DrDeath wrote:

1) The nerf to passing.

I like PA Stat and setting the average player to 4+. I think this makes Throwers a player teams want to use. I dislike wild and some players, like Zombies, not being able to pass. I would have accepted big guys such as Rat Ogre and Mino not being able to pass but being on the other players is anoying.

DrDeath wrote:
2) The changes to leaping, or jumping now are awful.
3) Secondly on jumping, getting into a cage is now much worse. Even an elf will only be able to leap into a tight

First I have played many teams (DElf, Skaven, Pro Elves) that do not have Leap. They still win games. Secondly while Leaping is harder you can now use a TRR on both the Leap and Block. Sure it may use more team resources but I can see the value in making Leap weaker in balance this out. When you look at the whole action (leap + Block) the chance of getting the ball free is 5% less effective.
3+ Leap & 1 Dice Block (one TRR) = 61%
4+ Leap & 1 Dice Block (TRR for both) = 56%

Yes Wood Elves will not be doing this every turn but then they should probably not have been doing that anyway.


DrDeath wrote:
4) If you look at the ‘bash’ equivalent for breaking

Yes. Break Tackle much better balanced skill now in line with the other changes. It stops AG 1 players such as Saurus now being as mobile as Elves.

DrDeath wrote:
5) Even if a player somehow, miraculously gets into a ballcarrier may well have this stupid new skill Safe Pair of
TOTALLY BROKEN – the chances of a turnover become minimal,

One rare skill to counter a strategy? It gives teams an extra option to control the ball. I think this is a good skill to add to the game.


DrDeath wrote:
6) The fouling changes are terrible too, I don’t like

This seems more of a personal opinion. Sneaky Git is finally a skill worth taking on players. To me this is a good thing.


DrDeath wrote:
7) Forcing teams to repeatedly cut to 1350TV every 15

This is not part of the new rules. BB2020 has an optional rule to limit redraft to 1300. Black Box should be fine with a hard cap. Leagues can, as I understand it, set there own limits.

DrDeath wrote:
8 ) The strict cutting to 1350TV on FUMBBL kills many of the big teams and stops most team development. Having to

Yes. Sadly this is the case. I wish the cost to rehire players was based on there skill level not seasons played. If a Star always cost +60k and a Legend +100k you would have better control of managing your team while still being limited. I agree with you here developed teams lose a lot and you can now never have a chance of getting players like Taku the Second with 6617 blocks.

DrDeath wrote:
9) I think they have gone too far now in the crusade against Claw. The old ClawPOMB probably was a bit too

Another one I disagree with you on. Happy to see Claw/MB interaction changed. Claw is still good.

DrDeath wrote:
10) They have axed loads of the Star Players. Ok some were a

On the plus side new Stars all have a special power (even if some are a bit lame). I would have like to see a few more but I think the Spike Magazines were adding far too many stars just to create content.

DrDeath wrote:
11) Some races have been unnecessarily nerfed, while dwarfs

Agree. Many are now unplayable for me. I have even got an purchased a Dwarf team to play in our local league.

DrDeath wrote:
12) Some of the stat increase prices are just stupid. +80TV for + Str? That is just daft - it will NEVER be worthwhile

Some or just Str? I am happy with the others. Could see taking this on a player during a season and the firing them at the end. This makes natural Strength worth more on players that have it. It needed to be more than 50k

DrDeath wrote:
There are a few good tweaks I will admit, like nerfing some of the overly powerful kick-off events like Blitz, no more

Again lots of other minor tweaks I also like and am looking forward to trying out.
neubau



Joined: Nov 12, 2016

Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2021 - 11:52 Reply with quote Back to top

DrDeath has pretty much listed every single of my issues with BB2020.

For me the biggest gripe is the new skill advancement system. There'S little things in Bloodbowl more fun than to roll a 12 on a player, or to get useful doubles and stats on some otherwise lackluster players. This is gone now and no one will build an st4ag4 skaven lino (or insert any other weak lino) because while not impossible its so nonsensical to go for it, it might as well be. For me that takes a lot of character from the building, emergent storytelling and roleplaying part of the game.

The leagues I'm in will try to keep to the old format as good as possible so I probably can live with the gameplay changes (and as Death said, some are quite good), but the cookie cutter skill selection system and the perpetual rebuilding with this system, which ironically might lead to teams like the OP is building right now, pretty much assures I'm not coming back to open play.

_________________
Image
Image
Verminardo



Joined: Sep 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2021 - 11:57 Reply with quote Back to top

DrDeath wrote:
I’ve played since 1st edition, and seen a lot of rules changes over the years. Whenever it happens, some folks don’t like it of course, but I have to say this time it feels very different. The changes are just too big, unbalanced and ill-considered this time in my opinion.


I wouldn't necessarily argue that the changes from, say, 2nd to 3rd edition were less big, but the point to me is, CRP was a pretty refined rules set. It was the culmination of a long process and the result of tons and tons of playtesting. It had a slight problem around CPOMB but otherwise it was working really really well. So the logical thing would have been to fix CPOMB, then lean back and say, wow, what a great game we've made.

Instead they've mauled it once with BB16 und now once more with BB20, before BB16 was even fully released. What jars me is not just balancing, it's also the fact there was an elegance to CRP, a number of underlying principles that were never explicitly spelled out but that made it so streamlined and "of one piece". The new rules is just a big heap of piecemeal stuff that seems almost random. It is as ugly as the artwork.

/rant
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2021 - 12:13 Reply with quote Back to top

ImBatman wrote:

We aren't keen on going back to random MVP, which undoubtedly does slow down team progression, but it's the same for everyone so I think it remains fair.

Not fair. Random MVP advantages teams starting with core skills (Dwarfs, Chaos Dwarfs, Norse) while disadvantages teams lacking starting skills (Lizardmen, Vampires, Chaos, Nurgle) because you can't focus the SPPs on the players needing to take the core skills. With a limited number of games due to Season Redraft you can't afford to spread the SPPs randomly on some teams.
King_Ghidra



Joined: Sep 14, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2021 - 13:29 Reply with quote Back to top

Lyracian wrote:
I would have like to see a few more but I think the Spike Magazines were adding far too many stars just to create content.


I disagree on this. What the spikes added were a range of stars at different cost levels that very often had actually useful skills and filled gaps in those teams star roster for play in different kinds of environments.

the range of stars was all over the shop in crp era. some teams had a whole bunch of good options at different tv levels, some had a couple that were so good they were perennially leaned on to prop up the team, and for some the cupboard was bare. the spikes did a good job of addressing this in many cases. now we are back to square one, if not worse.
Wolbum



Joined: Jul 14, 2010

Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2021 - 13:54 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
ImBatman wrote:

We aren't keen on going back to random MVP, which undoubtedly does slow down team progression, but it's the same for everyone so I think it remains fair.

Not fair. Random MVP advantages teams starting with core skills (Dwarfs, Chaos Dwarfs, Norse) while disadvantages teams lacking starting skills (Lizardmen, Vampires, Chaos, Nurgle) because you can't focus the SPPs on the players needing to take the core skills. With a limited number of games due to Season Redraft you can't afford to spread the SPPs randomly on some teams.


I think for those teams random skills will play a big part. You lack control over the skills sure but it assures 5 skills in 5 games. Its not great but it definitely is compensation over being stranded with only 2 skills by game 6.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2021 - 14:00 Reply with quote Back to top

5 random skills are not necessarily Block or Wrestle. There will be lack of blocking reliability, which is the big issue of starting Chaos and Nurgle.
Wolbum



Joined: Jul 14, 2010

Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2021 - 14:06 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
5 random skills are not necessarily Block or Wrestle. There will be lack of blocking reliability, which is the big issue of starting Chaos and Nurgle.


Absolutely. It isn't a full substitute for block and wrestle but the option is there at least. I think Nurgle suffered more than Chaos though. Both lack skills but Nurgle took even longer to get off the ground. Chaos just need an apothecary and go from there but Nurgle needed more rerolls and pestigirs, on top of the rotter nerf.
DrDeath



Joined: Mar 27, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2021 - 17:23 Reply with quote Back to top

Lyracian wrote:
while Leaping is harder you can now use a TRR on both the Leap and Block. Sure it may use more team resources but I can see the value in making Leap weaker in balance this out. When you look at the whole action (leap + Block) the chance of getting the ball free is 5% less effective.
3+ Leap & 1 Dice Block (one TRR) = 61%
4+ Leap & 1 Dice Block (TRR for both) = 56%

Yes Wood Elves will not be doing this every turn but then they should probably not have been doing that anyway.


Thanks for the maths Lyracian, but unfortunately you are only looking at part of the problem. Firstly we should look at a -2d block - it will usually be -2 dice because there will be Guard to contend with. And teams will have to pay an extra 50k plus just to take that one shot per half at those odds.

BUT SECONDLY, AND MORE IMPORTANTLY YOU HAVE MISSED OVER HALF THE PROBLEM. It is not enough to just get the ball loose in a cage - unless you also have a fair shot at recovering it, or at least getting it somewhere away from the cage, there isn't really much point in trying a sack. Read through Point 5 again. How easy is that turnover going to be now, when the RETRIEVER now also has to try ANOTHER risky jump, passing is worse (if needed), and worst of all the ballcarrier can just have Safe Pair of Hands and stick the ball in 2 or 3 Tackle Zones? The chance of getting to that ball, picking it up and getting out again will be TINY. And zero chance of it going into the crowd too.

THAT is what I mean by the end of dynamic defence in the new ruleset. And it is not just leaping that will be affected. For example Break Tackles too, or just a bit of an opening for a sack around the side of a line - if the ball carrier at worst can just stick it in two, three or more Tackle Zones even if they get knocked over, then there is little point in even trying - especially if it leaves valuable AV7 players like wardancers exposed.

Instead we will see lots of boring, grinding drives with the ball very rarely changing hands. At least we will get lots of drives each because of no stalling. But that is still rubbish - much of the fun comes from the chance of engineering a sack and securing a turnover. These new rules make that incredibly difficult whatever team you play, unless you have something like a wizard or just maim half the opposing team. I like dynamic defence in games - indeed I believe all players do, even dwarf coaches.

There MUST be some viable ways of cracking cages, or the game is just boring is it not? It will lose many dimensions of strategy that we currently have. I think we agree on many other points, but this in particular I strongly believe is an abject failure in the new ruleset. They have thrown all balance, and many interesting tactics out of the window, and we are going to see lots of tedious grinds.


Last edited by DrDeath on Jan 18, 2021 - 17:45; edited 1 time in total
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2021 - 17:39 Reply with quote Back to top

DrDeath wrote:
[
Firstly we should look at a -2d block - it will usually be -2 dice because there will be Guard to contend with.

I've read on forums that Defensive skill allows to ignore the Guard assists, so, if your leaping sacker has it, it should be just 1d block.

About Safe Pair of Hands. Maybe I'm wrong, but, given the limited development of ball carriers due to Season Redraft, they should have realistically max 2-3 skills or a stat boost, so, unless the player starts with default Safe Pair of Hands (like the Renegade Human Thrower) I don't think that people will waste a skill slot on such a situational skill.


Last edited by MattDakka on Jan 18, 2021 - 19:39; edited 2 times in total
King_Ghidra



Joined: Sep 14, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2021 - 17:44 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:

I've read on forums that Defensive skill allows to ignore the Guard assists, so, if your leaping sacker has it, it should be just 1d block.


Defensive only works on your opponent's turn.
King_Ghidra



Joined: Sep 14, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2021 - 17:46 Reply with quote Back to top

DrDeath wrote:
At least we will get lots of drives each because of no stalling.


Why would there be no stalling?
Display posts from previous:     
 Jump to:   
All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic