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The_Great_Gobbo



Joined: Aug 04, 2014

Post   Posted: Sep 27, 2021 - 14:09 Reply with quote Back to top

I fink i breaks every rule of yours every game Smile
argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 27, 2021 - 17:39 Reply with quote Back to top

stej wrote:
Shame that the implications of a concession are fixed in advance, and don't depend on the game state at point of concession.
I've had a few games where the dice have gone in my favour, I'm looking at a pitch clear and a few extra TDs, but my opponent concedes, so the concession sps are unlikely to be near what I would have got from the remainder of the game.
It's a minor gripe, and I expect no changes, but just wanted to voice it


I fully understand your point of view and I have sometimes thought the same. But sometimes it happened to me to be on the "other side of the Moon" and when you see your team disintegrated after not even 8 turns sometimes you also think about preserving your "Legend" player who maybe was the only one left on the field and is being fouled every turn by 6 assisting players. I'd say it depends on the concession. If a person is blessed by luck in an exaggerated way, expect your opponent to stand there and watch while you farm Spps simply by making a thousand blocks (or fouls, even if you do not earn spps there are people who like to fail every turn, and as long as the rules allow you can do it and no one should complain) is too much.
In this case the rules of concession are quite clear: if a coach suffers two CAS and has no more apo in principle he can concede . In general it is granted when the situation is much more serious. However, I fully agree that conceding a game in the first half is something to be avoided. Usually you wait until the second half and evaluate. Conceding a game after four rounds is questionable. But anyway... also here is a question of "netiquette" at the end, because the rule is not "sharp".
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 27, 2021 - 17:48 Reply with quote Back to top

By the way, concession is not a sure way to preserve a Legend player.
50% chance to lose him anyway if you concede.
Actually, if you leave all your players on the ground and skip turns it's very unlikely that a team will be destroyed by a single foul per turn and it doesn't require so much time compared to a concession as well.
Also, many concessions end in retirement of the conceding team (if it's a young team), so claiming that concession is made in order to preserve players/team is often an excuse.
It's just a way to escape quickly from a game which went wrong.

As an aside, I always wondered how the concession rule applies to teams with Regeneration always lacking the Apothecary. Technically they can never use the Apo (only the Igor, when they can induce him), so, are 2 not regenerated CAS enough to concede?
Bellenrode



Joined: May 02, 2021

Post   Posted: Sep 28, 2021 - 05:54 Reply with quote Back to top

ArrestedDevelopment wrote:
Complete silence can be annoying at times but is infinitely preferable to complaint.

This. I'd rather play with someone who says nothing over playing with someone who rages the whole game. If anything I find having the option to mute and blacklist people to be vital part of online gaming.

I had some Blood Bowl games that were nice, because both coaches (me and the other coach) were making sensible comments on what was happening during the game, but you can't really mandate that with a Netiquette and I don't believe in enforcing it. It has to flow from you.

For example: I am not the first one to greet - because I don't like bothering people - but I am going to respond to a greeting or to a question.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 28, 2021 - 13:43 Reply with quote Back to top

Greeting is a social convention, not bothering people.
Trying to put up a conversation after the greeting may bother silent people/not native English speakers, but just a greeting is not a negative thing.
It's basic sociality. Not mandatory but nice to have, like writing: "grats gg thanks for the game see you". That way you are treating your opponent like a person and not an AI.
argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 28, 2021 - 14:04 Reply with quote Back to top

Bellenrode wrote:


I had some Blood Bowl games that were nice, because both coaches (me and the other coach) were making sensible comments on what was happening during the game, but you can't really mandate that with a Netiquette and I don't believe in enforcing it. It has to flow from you.
.


I certainly agree with you. Netiquette is not an obligation, it is a convention. What I have written above are rules of good behaviour, but there are no rules that require you to say hello or to prevent if you are going to take a timeout. But I am in freedom to think that who does not say hello and who call timeot without a first warn is a rogue.

As for the blacklist, it would be an interesting topic to see what the majority of coaches on FUMBBL think about it (add a blacklist of coaches I do not want to play vs). We can make a poll .There are coaches against whom I do not like to play because I do not like their style of play, because they behaved in a way that I consider dishonest in the past... whatever. But allowing myself to play only with the coaches I want to play with is reductive. The real world is also made up of people we do not like, and the strength and ability of a good Coach is also being able to play against those who we dislike (and maybe is stronger than us) and be able to beat them on the field!
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 28, 2021 - 14:09 Reply with quote Back to top

In competition there is no blacklist and no choice.
Competition is defeating an opponent you can't choose, not playing vs an opponent you like/don't like for whatever reason.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 28, 2021 - 15:28 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
In competition there is no blacklist and no choice.
Competition is defeating an opponent you can't choose, not playing vs an opponent you like/don't like for whatever reason.

On Fumbbl, "competition" is whatever Christer says it is.

There was a blacklist function. I can't be bothered to look for it now.

It didn't stop you matching someone in Box or tournaments. It didn't need to. There was Ranked for that.

Don't we already have a thread for this?

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 28, 2021 - 15:34 Reply with quote Back to top

The other thread derailed. Anyway, I have understood that there is no interest in real competitive games, no need to discuss further.
PaddyMick



Joined: Jan 03, 2012

Post   Posted: Sep 28, 2021 - 15:52 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
In competition there is no blacklist and no choice.
Competition is defeating an opponent you can't choose, not playing vs an opponent you like/don't like for whatever reason.


Agreed, but you can choose not to enter a competition if there are lots of tools in it. Thankfully most Fumbbl players are nice.

No to a blacklist, it would be counter-productive, like sticking bouncers on a pub door often attracts trouble.

One other thought: You can force good manners on people, but being nice means more when it's voluntary.
Bellenrode



Joined: May 02, 2021

Post   Posted: Sep 29, 2021 - 04:47 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
It's basic sociality. Not mandatory but nice to have, like writing: "grats gg thanks for the game see you". That way you are treating your opponent like a person and not an AI.

I understand where you are coming from, but to me making things such as "gg" mandatory (socially) after a game is what made it meaningless, because people say it out of habit, without actually meaning it. We might as well automate the chat so it always says these things for us.

Also, I recognize situations when a particular match wasn't really a good experience for the other side (or for me), so saying "gg" is even worse under such circumstances.

argos_72 wrote:
But allowing myself to play only with the coaches I want to play with is reductive. The real world is also made up of people we do not like, and the strength and ability of a good Coach is also being able to play against those who we dislike (and maybe is stronger than us) and be able to beat them on the field!

I would never use a blacklist function just to prevent people with different playstyle (or skill level) to play with me. This is using the feature in a manner it isn't intended for.

And while it is true the real world has people you don't like - and you have to interact with them - this is different when it comes to gaming.

The way I see it, playing with someone is a privilege, not an obligation. If you can't respect the fact that I spend my free time to play with you, then I have the right to stand up and leave. This is how it works with boardgames.

I am not even asking people to be nice. I am asking them to not be purposefully disruptive when playing together.

It could be argued you don't really need a blacklist feature when the ability to mute is present, but this is not not quite true.

In Blood Bowl 2, for example, some people refused to make any moves when they got upset enough. Then a timer was added. It was still possible for them to waste your time by letting the timer run out (which was 2-3 minutes long, depending on settings) though.

At this point I think my position of being able to blacklist such people is warranted, because I could be in a match with someone who actively wants to PLAY the game. Admittedly this is less of an issue in a leagues which are actively moderated (or where everyone is someone you know, or knows someone you know).
mekutata



Joined: May 03, 2015

Post   Posted: Sep 29, 2021 - 09:51 Reply with quote Back to top

Bellenrode wrote:

I understand where you are coming from, but to me making things such as "gg" mandatory (socially) after a game is what made it meaningless, because people say it out of habit, without actually meaning it. We might as well automate the chat so it always says these things for us.


It's also habit that I greet friends and acquaintances when I meet them. That must not mean it is meaningless. Just that the more social members of the community developed a habit. If you feel that has become an empty phrase you could make a point by just writing a paragraph instead to acknowledge your opponent.

Regarding your described issues of people trolling ingame (not moving etc), those are a rarity on fumbbl and if you should experience such a game you can always contact the fumbbl admins. We are not in BB2, this place is moderated. Because of that I don't see the need for the individual blacklist option.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 29, 2021 - 12:00 Reply with quote Back to top

Bellenrode wrote:

I understand where you are coming from, but to me making things such as "gg" mandatory (socially) after a game is what made it meaningless, because people say it out of habit, without actually meaning it. We might as well automate the chat so it always says these things for us.

Also, I recognize situations when a particular match wasn't really a good experience for the other side (or for me), so saying "gg" is even worse under such circumstances.

I understand your view. Well, you don't have to write "gg" or any comment about the match, just "thanks for the game, see you" is enough.
Chat is not mandatory, you can be totally silent all game, but if some emergency happens and you have to communicate it to your opponent it would be a bit weird to suddenly start to chat just because now you need it.

About opponent trolling: I have never played Cyanide BB2, only BB and BB:LE but I found more trolls there.
People stopping playing when losing (letting the timer run out every turn till 4 minutes), making appear a window on the pitch in order to bother you while playing, conceding after a double skull-CAS or just after a turn 1 Blitz! because they deployed badly. Especially concessions were very common and easy there (due to lack of 51+ SPPs rule).
mekutata



Joined: May 03, 2015

Post   Posted: Sep 29, 2021 - 12:03 Reply with quote Back to top

Seeing that you had no games on fumbbl yet Bellenrode, you will have a better experience regarding such troll behaviour on fumbbl. There have been only a few rotten apples for me in 1117 games so far.

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argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 29, 2021 - 12:59 Reply with quote Back to top

Bellenrode wrote:

I would never use a blacklist function just to prevent people with different playstyle (or skill level) to play with me. This is using the feature in a manner it isn't intended for.



I agree, a blacklist should be used against coaches who have been extremely rude and aggressive but when the limits are exceeded you can always appeal to the moderator and avoid a drastic solution as permanent blacklist someone

It can happen once to lose your nerves and make unkind comments the important thing is to understand it and not be branded as "black sheep" forever.

It happened to me in a League this year. During a particularly unfortunate game against a rather sarcastic opponent I lost my patience and conceded the match by saying that the rules of the game are sometimes stupid and that I wasn't sure I wanted to continue playing in the league. I was really angry and I regretted this almost immediately after leaving the game.
The next day the admin of the league wrote to me in a very aggressive way asking me why I was making such a mess of things by quitting a league. I thought about it for a while and then I apologized publicly on the league forum, saying that I had lost my patience but that I was willing to continue the tournament. But in the meantime the league administrator had expelled me, had put me in a sort of blacklist, and had taken my team and gave it to another coach. All this in less than 24 hours. It was my first experience in a league and it was devastating.

I don't like irreversible punishments. Everyone should be given the opportunity to perhaps correct their thinking and admit "I was wrong, sorry".
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