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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 22, 2021 - 14:37 Reply with quote Back to top

argos_72 wrote:

So at the end there are argumentations both for and against this solution... maybe we should launch a Poll to see what is the opinion of the majority (have Box Scheduler separated by Competitive GF or merged?). Would be interesting to see the results...


Maybe you should wait until BB3 launches.

I'm guessing that the divisions were merged due to a dwindling user base.

There seems to be a lot of BB2 coaches here for the new rules. If they go back when BB3 launches (with no seasons) we'll be back where we were.

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 22, 2021 - 14:44 Reply with quote Back to top

JanMattys wrote:
Well I suppose you have your reasons.


The reason is, I don't have the time or the inclination.

I already have many, many teams under 1500. If I want to play under 1500, I can use any one of them.

If I want to play higher, what? I'm gonna have to grind a team up every time only for it to be cut down again.
If they get cut down in a match then at least you have the fun of the game and a tale to tell.

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 22, 2021 - 14:55 Reply with quote Back to top

mekutata wrote:

So to OP. IMO the concept of Ranked should not be killed, just the bb16 rulesystem should be replaced. So basically turn the current C into the new R.


The intent of the OP was not ask for Ranked to live forever, but to let it die in it's own time. As opposed to just killing it at a certain date, e.g. when seasons or then new scheduler are released when there were still a few people playing it.
Though, I guess definitions of "dead" vary.

mekutata wrote:
Personally I'd like to see BB20 handled like BB16. Two separate divisions plus a default League for friendly games. And if I'd play Secret League I probably would want to have the same mirrored for Secret League.


As for Secret League...

It occurs in the [L]eague division so people can do whatever they want. Smile

[SL16] will continue for as long as the site supports it and people keep on signing up for it.
The [SL}UMBBL Cup is approaching its semi-final stage, a 1800TW Shield kicked off last week with 16 teams.

I'm assuming that it will be mostly a high(ish) TV nostalgia trip where people can play their big old famous teams.

[SL20] will (probably) have 15 game seasons and make it pretty easy to make the 1600 cap. Assuming that there is a cap.

As it is the [L]eague division, anyone who really cannot bear to cut even to 1600 (probably me) can create their own league with whatever settings they like. Including no seasons (me).

The more competing leagues there are, the harder it will be for anyone to get an open game.
I'd expect most action to take place in [SL20]. If you really can't face the cut, then maybe jump ship to no seasons at season's end. Bearing in mind that open games would most likely be pretty scarce there.

Tournament apoths that patch up MNG players up before round 1 of a tournament have worked before. Smile

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Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Oct 22, 2021 - 16:13 Reply with quote Back to top

maznaz wrote:
Catalyst32 wrote:
maznaz wrote:
MattDakka wrote:
PurpleChest wrote:
i would always counter that my 'utopia' is somewhere everyone derives equal and maximum enjoyment from gaming the way they wish, without feeling the need to impose their personal choices upon others.

Automatic scheduling is the right and fair compromise between two coaches' personal and selfish choices.
It removes the picking problem and saves lot of time, thus increasing the number of fair games played.
If people want to pick they can still do it in League.
No problem with that, as long as you don't get CR Gamefinder is ok.

It's not the way I prefer, it's just the most logical and efficient way to arrange matches.
The way I'd prefer, to be accurate, is Cyanide MM, where you spin and find a game within 2-3 minutes, but, since here the number of coaches is lower, I accept to wait for a draw every 15 minutes.
Staring at the GF for hours is really a massive waste of time, also, sometimes I have to do RL stuff and miss the offers or the search stops after a while.


I agree with your thoughts on a scheduler. The idea of a competitive division where you choose your opponents has always been hilarious to me. You could speed up your time to find matches though by not avoiding my dwarfs for hours at a time Smile


AND CHECK.
Another coach from a European Time Zone who thinks forcing everyone into a format that only RELIABLY WORKS during the primary European Time Zones.

This site has coaches that are from Australia, New Zealand, Japan, Canada, America, and other places who CANNOT get games through the Scheduler because there are not enough other Coaches to play against.

Just because in Europe everyone is AFRAID to play against other Coaches in games they might both enjoy doesn't mean the rest of the world does that exclusively.

You are FREE to have that unrealistic opinion because you do not have to spend hours looking for ANYONE to play. You can put your preferred teams in the scheduler and play right away.

The rest of us CANNOT use the damn thing most of the time.


An automated scheduler makes it easier to get games not harder.



NO. Not if there are not enough COACHES to schedule a match.
And there are not enough Coaches for HOURS at a time in many time zones.
Instead NO MATCHES are scheduled.

Gamefinder only requires 2 Coaches willing to play and in those Time Zones there must not be as many "Dirty Pickers" that so many Coaches complain about.


Last edited by Catalyst32 on Oct 22, 2021 - 16:36; edited 1 time in total
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Oct 22, 2021 - 16:30 Reply with quote Back to top

Java wrote:
hands up if you can go on gamefinder and get offered a decent, fun, winnable match within minutes

o/

bonus points if in the meantime you also get pinged to death by tier 1 hardliners (but only on your lower tier teams Twisted Evil )



And yet ANOTHER European Coach who is ASLEEP or AT WORK (or SCHOOL) during the HOURS of the day when there are not enough Coaches activating for the scheduler to work that thinks HE KNOWS what Coaches from Time Zones outside of Europe go through to use the scheduler.

Raise your hand if you have heard someone that doesn't know what he is talking about spout off about it and never come to understand it any better despite decades.

\o
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Oct 22, 2021 - 16:33 Reply with quote Back to top

lemf wrote:
I am looking forward to the transfer of teams from ranked. Having been working on gridfilling for absolutely years now and with 1 more win required to have completed a winning grid with all the same teams in LRB4 then done the grid twice more with the same teams in crp It would be great to do it again in the new rule set.
And yes I wait on gamefinder in ranked for almost 3 hours every night waiting for that last match.
Very Happy



What matchup do you need?
If I have that match and I can find the time I will come looking for you.
I'd hate to see you not Fill That Grid and potentially lose out on that.

PM me. I might not see the post in the thread.
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Oct 22, 2021 - 16:59 Reply with quote Back to top

JanMattys wrote:
Well Christer, I suppose the point is that some people believe that the existence of a mixed system pretty much nullifies the "validity" of one of the two. If some people can choose their games and get a rank out of it, those who choose an automated pairing will be at a disadvantage.

While I made abundantly clear that I do not agree with MattDakka nor with his debating style, the idea in itself has some reason behind it.

You are right that neither system is inherently better than the other. But that's not the point. Which is better was never the point. The point is that those who prefer one, want ONE. Having both for them is as bad as having the worst one.

That's not really something fixable I suppose, but it's not a matter of letting one system dominate the other. When you opened B, R didn't die. So there's clearly enough activity on the site to support both. The question is not which one is better, the question is if they should be merged or not.

(I think).



They should ABSOLUTELY be merged.
You should be able to use the Scheduler AND Gamefinder for the same team.
It would create MORE TEAMS in both the Scheduler AND on the Gamefinder by having more teams in same Division.
And MORE GAMES = MORE FUN for all.

There is no reason to FEAR a team in the scheduler that played its' games outside of the scheduler... ESPECIALLY not in a BB2020 Seasons scenario where every team must be paired down to 1350 every 15 games.

I have played mostly Ranked and then League. But I have played enough Box to know that BOX always produced the most dangerous teams. (Except for in the Ranked Majors.)

Only in the Major Tournaments could a Ranked team really grow into a Monster... and those games were all arranged by a Blind Draw into a Bracket and then advancing against more teams who ALSO entered into the same Blind Draw.

SO if you actually THINK about it instead of having some Virtue Signaling. Knee-jerk reaction... it is only in the BLIND DRAW FORMAT of Ranked Tournaments or Black Box where the team people complain about can be found (and BUILT)for that matter.

And my chief gripe has always been the DIVIDING of the User Base by separating Box and Ranked.

As I have said in this thread the BOX does not function during many hours I would like to find a game but in RANKED a game could still (usually) be found. But I had to have 2 TEAMS to be able to play in that way.

It would be so much more preferable to have just 1 TEAM that I could put in the BOX when there are enough other Coaches and still play when there are NOT enough other Coaches in the BOX.
Or to play against other teams that have a fun Coach who has a Fun Team to play. Like Arktoris and his "Hellbound Charioteers" (a legendary Norse side for those that do not know).
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Oct 22, 2021 - 17:29 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Success changes if you can pick your opponents or not.



So when I could not use the scheduler in BOX because there were not enough Coaches to activate... you believe I could Pick my Opponent when the only available opponent was 1 other Coach.

How did I choose who the only other Coach on FUMBBL was going to be?

How did I choose which teams of his would be of the right TV to match against my teams?

Did I tell him what teams to develop for days and weeks and months before that 1 moment on a Tuesday night when only we would be looking for a game at 1130pm?

Or was it... as it actually was... that when the 2 of us were the only 2 Coaches looking to play a game Activated in the Box only to see the for an hour...
0 other coaches in the activation...
2 other coaches in the activation...
1 other coach in the activation...
1 other coach in the activation... and so on and so on and so on.

And during that time after each activation that never created a single game we finally saw another coach on Gamefinder and noticed...
my Orcs V his CD's looked like a fair game...
OR my Humans's V his Necro looked like a fair game... or my X V his Y looked like a fair game...
and BOTH AGREED (because it takes 2 coaches to AGREE) we would rather PLAY than sit inside a BOX that would not let us PLAY for hours on end.

How were we manipulating anything? Our only choices to make were...
Pick A (The BOX) and DON"T PLAY AT ALL or Pick B and PLAY.

You do not have the perspective required to know what is best for YOU let alone FUMBBL.
Thankfully Christer does.
argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post 18 Posted: Oct 22, 2021 - 17:40 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
argos_72 wrote:

So at the end there are argumentations both for and against this solution... maybe we should launch a Poll to see what is the opinion of the majority (have Box Scheduler separated by Competitive GF or merged?). Would be interesting to see the results...


Maybe you should wait until BB3 launches.

I'm guessing that the divisions were merged due to a dwindling user base.

There seems to be a lot of BB2 coaches here for the new rules. If they go back when BB3 launches (with no seasons) we'll be back where we were.


We hope that the BB2 users landed on FUMBBL will be so delighted than will remain here and will not get back once BB3 will be ready (and btw I think BB3 does not include all the races, isn't it?) Laughing
Kam



Joined: Nov 06, 2012

Post   Posted: Oct 22, 2021 - 17:42 Reply with quote Back to top

"Does Ranked have to be killed?"

On my dead buddy!

Errr... Body!


I'm still playing without fling positionals, I'm still looking for R games and keep doing so till I hit the 1K bar. I'm not trying to convince you R is great - it isn't. But heck, yes, I'll play 1K games with my flings and I'll celebrate!

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Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Oct 22, 2021 - 17:44 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
No, but just one example is enough to prove that picking in the Box is not possible.
You can't avoid a specific race in the Box.
You could avoid certain TVs, though, by cycling teams, that's true, and some races are more common/less common in certain TV-brackets.
That's not exactly picking, though, it's more sweet spotting.
For picking I mean: "carefully choosing/refusing the opponent coach and race with pinpoint accuracy".


What are you saying? That is NOT TRUE. You can TOTALLY avoid Amazons in the Box. Razz

And on Gamefinder you can totally avoid the 1000's of offers a day from Dwarves wh are trying to PICK your Amazons.

Oh wait... you think the Amazons are picking bu not being willing to just get torn apart?
Not the Dwarves looking for the easy win against a team they will surely rip into shreds?
Are you sure you know what picking is?


Last edited by Catalyst32 on Oct 22, 2021 - 17:51; edited 1 time in total
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 22, 2021 - 17:48 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm in California, 9 hours behind server. During the day, when the European crowd is about, there are always many matches in gamefinder but it's just as hard to get a game as it is in the evening when I may see one or two coaches at some point over an hour of staring at a pinwheel.

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Java



Joined: Jan 27, 2018

Post   Posted: Oct 22, 2021 - 18:16 Reply with quote Back to top

Catalyst32 wrote:
Java wrote:
hands up if you can go on gamefinder and get offered a decent, fun, winnable match within minutes

o/

bonus points if in the meantime you also get pinged to death by tier 1 hardliners (but only on your lower tier teams Twisted Evil )



And yet ANOTHER European Coach who is ASLEEP or AT WORK (or SCHOOL) during the HOURS of the day when there are not enough Coaches activating for the scheduler to work that thinks HE KNOWS what Coaches from Time Zones outside of Europe go through to use the scheduler.

Raise your hand if you have heard someone that doesn't know what he is talking about spout off about it and never come to understand it any better despite decades.

\o


Mate.

I want no quarrel with you.

Go back and reread my post.

I was talking about GAMEFINDER.

It contains the word "gamefinder".

You went on a rant about Europeans and the SCHEDULER.

My post does not contain the word "scheduler".

By the way, my current work schedule means I sometimes play a match in the morning after coffee, against a Pacific TZ coach (NA/AU/NZ) who's in their evening or wee hours of the morning. If you ever fancy playing again, I'm your buddy. Playing sure beats forum drama for most of us.

In the meantime, an apology, or even an admission of error, would be welcome.
maznaz



Joined: Jan 26, 2004

Post   Posted: Oct 22, 2021 - 18:18 Reply with quote Back to top

Catalyst32 wrote:
maznaz wrote:
Catalyst32 wrote:
maznaz wrote:
MattDakka wrote:
PurpleChest wrote:
i would always counter that my 'utopia' is somewhere everyone derives equal and maximum enjoyment from gaming the way they wish, without feeling the need to impose their personal choices upon others.

Automatic scheduling is the right and fair compromise between two coaches' personal and selfish choices.
It removes the picking problem and saves lot of time, thus increasing the number of fair games played.
If people want to pick they can still do it in League.
No problem with that, as long as you don't get CR Gamefinder is ok.

It's not the way I prefer, it's just the most logical and efficient way to arrange matches.
The way I'd prefer, to be accurate, is Cyanide MM, where you spin and find a game within 2-3 minutes, but, since here the number of coaches is lower, I accept to wait for a draw every 15 minutes.
Staring at the GF for hours is really a massive waste of time, also, sometimes I have to do RL stuff and miss the offers or the search stops after a while.


I agree with your thoughts on a scheduler. The idea of a competitive division where you choose your opponents has always been hilarious to me. You could speed up your time to find matches though by not avoiding my dwarfs for hours at a time Smile


AND CHECK.
Another coach from a European Time Zone who thinks forcing everyone into a format that only RELIABLY WORKS during the primary European Time Zones.

This site has coaches that are from Australia, New Zealand, Japan, Canada, America, and other places who CANNOT get games through the Scheduler because there are not enough other Coaches to play against.

Just because in Europe everyone is AFRAID to play against other Coaches in games they might both enjoy doesn't mean the rest of the world does that exclusively.

You are FREE to have that unrealistic opinion because you do not have to spend hours looking for ANYONE to play. You can put your preferred teams in the scheduler and play right away.

The rest of us CANNOT use the damn thing most of the time.


An automated scheduler makes it easier to get games not harder.



NO. Not if there are not enough COACHES to schedule a match.
And there are not enough Coaches for HOURS at a time in many time zones.
Instead NO MATCHES are scheduled.

Gamefinder only requires 2 Coaches willing to play and in those Time Zones there must not be as many "Dirty Pickers" that so many Coaches complain about.


If THERE are not ENOUGH coaches to schedule A match, then HAVING SOME of them sat on GAMEFINDER waiting for the RIGHT elves to COME ALONG makes it TAKE longer for everyone ELSE. God that was annoying to type. Why do you do it?

Virtually every online gaming environment has casual pickups for no rank, and ranked matches using a scheduler. This site always resisted it and I have no idea why.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 22, 2021 - 18:26 Reply with quote Back to top

"Virtually every online gaming environment has casual pickups for no rank, and ranked matches using a scheduler. This site always resisted it and I have no idea why."
I agree with you. Many years ago it was even worse: games had to be arranged via PM between coaches, something like: "Hello, do you want to play my Dwarfs 1200 vs your Humans 1190?". It was even more time-wasting than now, with a direct offer GF.
Then it made sense because there was no scheduler on the site, but now that a scheduler exists, I really don't get why it can't be used as only way to find competitive (i.e. with CR gain/loss involved) games.
It's 2021, not 2003. Let's use automatic MM as many online games do.
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