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Poll
In the next rule set
Re-drafting will be the same
19%
 19%  [ 9 ]
Re-drafting will be adjusted slightly
36%
 36%  [ 17 ]
Re-drafting will be adjusted a lot
12%
 12%  [ 6 ]
Re-drafting will be scrapped
10%
 10%  [ 5 ]
Why can't I just eat pie?
21%
 21%  [ 10 ]
Total Votes : 47


JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Nov 24, 2021 - 12:41 Reply with quote Back to top

Aging was fine and people hated it.
No cap whatsoever was fine and people hated it.
Redrafting is fine and people hate it.

It's no surprise that everybody and their mother have their preferred system. There's no "better option", just different preferences.

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stej



Joined: Jan 05, 2009

Post   Posted: Nov 24, 2021 - 12:43 Reply with quote Back to top

It's a shame you can't create new teams but with experienced players. E.g. you can higher a lineman with a chosen skill for +X k.
One could then happily increase the starting fund to match the 1350 cap, so new teams could join more easily. It would also stop the teams lacking starting skills having a dead season when joining a league, while they get up to the cap
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 24, 2021 - 12:50 Reply with quote Back to top

LRB 4 Ageing was poorly designed because a player could age at the first skill up.
A smarter Ageing could have worked, for example starting to check at 3 or 4 skills, but not at first skill.

No cap was bad because some teams were too high and when monoactivated in the Box forced the opponents to play super boring and lopsided matches.

Re-Draft is clearly not fine because penalizes the teams lacking starting skills.

The decent compromise would have been a hard TV cap, allowing tier 2 teams to develop a bit and be on even ground with the stronger starting tier 1 teams over time. Also, the advantage of a hard TV cap is that the TV is kept in check after every game, unlike Season Re-Draft, where the TV is kept in check only every 7 or 15 games.
moph



Joined: Sep 16, 2020

Post   Posted: Nov 24, 2021 - 17:59 Reply with quote Back to top

C0ddlefish wrote:
moph wrote:
Redrafting neglects the roleplaying aspect of the game. There is storytelling going on in the game for a lot of players.


Not sure I agree with that. Nearly all sports teams make changes to their squads each season due to financial restrictions, especially the sports that BB is loosely based upon. If anything redrafting is another layer of narrative for the team. ...


Thats a fair point. But I rather meant how the game mechanics also act as story engines: a random table could offer much more variety. Btw i would implement ageing on the number of games played and not on SPP.
This other layer of narrative you mention is more about the team managing. I could imagine making this aspect even bigger like calculating the running costs of the team and having to earn them on a regular basis... we all know these team manager games. This could be a direction GW is heading.
Kinks



Joined: Feb 28, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 24, 2021 - 18:07 Reply with quote Back to top

moph wrote:
Btw i would implement ageing on the number of games played and not on SPP.

If aging was rolled at the end of each season, rather than when a skill was gained that would have made much more sense.

moph wrote:
I could imagine making this aspect even bigger like calculating the running costs of the team and having to earn them on a regular basis... we all know these team manager games. This could be a direction GW is heading.

I think it's more likely GW will make things simpler and less in depth, that's usually what they do when revising rules.

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moph



Joined: Sep 16, 2020

Post   Posted: Nov 24, 2021 - 18:09 Reply with quote Back to top

Maybe it is just me, but i think this discussion about redrafting is also a cultural thing.
Of course BB is based on an american sport, but it was designed by a european.
The concepts of drafting players, teams as a franchise, college leauges etc can be quite irritating for europeans who have a diffrent club system and did not grow up with them. At least they are for me.
I'm not saying that one or another is better.
Maybe in the design team there are more american voices right now?
Jervis Johnson has announced retirement last summer.
Bellenrode



Joined: May 02, 2021

Post   Posted: Nov 24, 2021 - 18:45 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
The problem is that Re-draft is bad for teams starting without core skills, such as Vampires, Khorne, Nurgle, Lizardmen while doesn't affect as much teams starting with many core skills.

With re-drafting you can keep players of your choice. Before that your players retired (long-term leagues) or you had to start a new team from scratch (short-term leagues). So I fail to see how re-drafting is particularly worse here.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 24, 2021 - 18:49 Reply with quote Back to top

Some teams require more time to develop players. For example, even if you can retire a Vampire of your choice, it's not great to have to retire a Vampire due to Season Re-Draft, especially considering that now the MVP is random and skilling up Vampires require some time investment, unlike teams such as Dwarfs, Chaos Dwarfs, Norse, Orcs, Amazons.
Dalfort



Joined: Jun 23, 2008

Post   Posted: Nov 24, 2021 - 20:11 Reply with quote Back to top

JanMattys wrote:
Aging was fine and people hated it.
No cap whatsoever was fine and people hated it.
Redrafting is fine and people hate it.

It's no surprise that everybody and their mother have their preferred system. There's no "better option", just different preferences.


Will you please refrain from making such sensible Forum posts Wink

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JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Nov 25, 2021 - 09:58 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:

No cap was bad because some teams were too high and when monoactivated in the Box forced the opponents to play super boring and lopsided matches.


Fumbbl is not Bloodbowl.
Bloodbowl with no cap was more or less fine in a permanent league (with exceptions, for example a multiple-seasons Nurgle, but that's pretty much it). On fumbbl not so much, but neither Box nor monoactivation nor teams with thousands of games (or even hundreds) should be the base for game design.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 25, 2021 - 11:54 Reply with quote Back to top

Official Blood Bowl rules allow a Commissioner to set up a league as he fancies, and it is still Blood Bowl. Fumbbl is an online Blood Bowl league with Christer as Commissioner.
Teams with thousands of games are not a problem with a hard TV cap, no matter how long a League lasts.
stej



Joined: Jan 05, 2009

Post   Posted: Nov 25, 2021 - 12:36 Reply with quote Back to top

Fumbbl has always been great as you can play pretty much however you like.
Wanna play passing dwarfs? Go for it with some +stats.
Wanna cheese low TV with a one man killstack? Go for it
Wanna play big fat bloaty teams you could never get in a real life league? Go for it!

Sadly, redrafting kills the high tv play option in the new ruleset.
I also feel it kills the roleplay aspect and some of the fun fluff of the site like player records, or those times when some 500 game monster finally gets booted into the afterlife.

Actual matches will be ok, you'll still have fun bloodbowl. Just different tactics and what not.

I appreciate fumbbl is not a care when it comes to designing the rules, but sticking to the redraft cap in the rules will, for me at last, diminsh what fumbbl is.
Heff



Joined: Dec 24, 2012

Post   Posted: Nov 25, 2021 - 13:03 Reply with quote Back to top

Except you CANNOT play pretty much however you like. While you "Cheese low TV with a one man killstack" the people you are doing that TOO are losing players and losing interest. I know that the one example is not data, but the reason that I gave up playing leagues on here was because of the big monster teams at the top.

I disliked spending hours building a pretty solid 1200 to 1400 team, just to have it smashed to pieces when the game with a big boy came round. Then for the remnants of that to have to face the next 2k monster immediately afterwards. Or worse two or three games later when I had started a recovery.

I was sacrificing my teams on the alter of the other guys fun. Going into games I knew I was going to lose and knew would cost me that +AG ghoul I had (or whatever) because he was going to hunt down any stars I had and kill them, then hunt that player with potential down like a dog and kill them. That got old FAST.

So for me, ANYTHING that kills the big teams and means that it is more about the skill of the player, not the longevity of the team is good.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Nov 25, 2021 - 13:25 Reply with quote Back to top

Heff wrote:

So for me, ANYTHING that kills the big teams and means that it is more about the skill of the player, not the longevity of the team is good.


Fumbbl already had TV gap limits. They could have been tweaked.

Using 1350 kills the competitive division for people.
Having seasons at all kills some leagues for some people.

They have taken away an option that didn't need to be taken away.
They could have put a hard cap on tournaments.

The good thing about Fumbbl is that is gives us plenty of options.
The bad thing about plenty of options is that the userbase could be split too many way to be able just turn up and quickly get a game.

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mekutata



Joined: May 03, 2015

Post   Posted: Nov 25, 2021 - 13:56 Reply with quote Back to top

What people should remember when talking about teams being cut to low TV, less TV means less skills means it is less likely that you won't have enough space to tag a player's skills on the client Wink

Also FUMBBL is Blood Bowl, but Blood Bowl is more than FUMBBL.

There have always been modifications of Blood Bowl that are not supported here. But regarding Re-Draft rules nearly anything is (or will be) doable what a commish or a league decide to do.
With only a few leagues on fumbbl that started to play bb20 so far (and Re-Draft currently just being included only in theory) we are still theory bowling with SWL exception. So far most critique against the new system that I have read was based on perpetual match making. The few reports from TT scene were not too bad though.

Regarding the big perpetual environment on fumbbl, I'd assume that Christer would react if the new C division with included Re-Draft should lack player interest. So far number of played games went quite up despite Ranked and Box being basically dead. I mean in recent past there were generally more L games played than Box and Ranked, but currently C is far on top.

However, nothing stops unhappy coaches from creating a league environment that has no caps or redrafts at all. I think koadah does this with Secret League teams.
Ramchop even posted a blog how you could already (manually) transfer your old teams. At some point Christer will include something to clone old teams into the new ruleset. Maybe he can allow teams to opt to transfer into L and thus being able to join there instead to C. Provided there is enough interest.
Be pro-active and provide the Blood Bowl experience you believe into. And for now enjoy your C games with teams that don't redraft anyway (I have seen some crazy Vampires).

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