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JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 05, 2023 - 01:37 Reply with quote Back to top

Klunker wrote:
a) Your mix of AV10/9/8 (20%/40%/40%) is probably too cautious to analyse claw. Claw players will actively hunt the AV10 pieces when available and leave the AV8s to their tackle-teammates.
Yes, read my post below that one about blockers vs. killers. I also didn't consider Stunties at all, but for ClawMB vs MB, Stunty is just more AV8+, regardless of AV (unless it's above 8+, which is rare).

Klunker wrote:
b) More importantly, there is a snowballing effect which I wouldn't know how to calculate. Once you have removed a couple of opponents, you have more tackle zones and more assists. This will have all sorts of tactical advantages and will greatly diminish their odds of causing removals against you. So what I'm saying is: The value of removing a player is greater than just TV/turns. I would probably add something like 15-30% to the value of each removal.
Agreed. There is a sense in which you can say that each player is worth slightly more than the one before. If all your players are identical, losing one costs you 9.0909...% of your firepower, the next costs 10% of what you have left, then 11.111...%, then 12.5%, etc. You could structure it in terms of anticipated removals, but that introduces coaching tendencies and opposing AV mix (not to mention opposing tendencies, and own team composition beyond just what goes into the block itself), and I'm not that crazy. However, I can tell you that this favors multiple instances of Mighty Blow for coaches who throw a lot of blocks, but less so for those who are more surgical or standoffish.

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JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 05, 2023 - 03:41 Reply with quote Back to top

Okay, had me a think.

Each injury works on many different grounds:

1) The removed player and its value are removed from consideration on the following turn and future turns.

2) The removed player's Tackle Zone and action are lost along with the player's personal specifics.

3) The removed player's loss causes future removals to decrease the on-pitch value of the team by a greater margin.

4) The removed player is not earning SPP for the turns removed.

5) If the removal is the result of a Stun, it may cause additional actions to be lost if the lost turn takes the player out of the action, and it also indicates that the "removed" player's square remains occupied by a stunned player, should that come up.

6) If the removal is a Casualty caused by a block (or an appropriate source with the right Prayer), it generates SPP for the acting player.

7) If the removal is a Casualty of any sort, it may result in long-term consequences for the player, and is also potentially subject to the Apothecary.

8) If the player has Stunty or Regeneration, there are additional categories of removal generated.
8a) Stunty creates a Casualty that is not subject to the long-term consequences impact of rule 7, which changes the Apothecary consideration in some cases (though many Stunty players are not deemed worthy by their coaches) ;
8b) Regeneration creates a Casualty that is only worth the remaining number of turns in the drive, in removal purposes.

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JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 05, 2023 - 15:45 Reply with quote Back to top

Hmmm... maybe it's an anticipated number of turns by position? That could probably be calculated, though stuns might be a trick. Also interesting might be a measure of the correlation between player-turns, player position, and match result.

Like, for a facile example, what if you have an Elven Union Blitzer (115k) with Dodge (+20k)? You don't expect it to get 160 turns in 10 regulation games, right? Well, what if it's worth 13.5 turns per match played? Skip MNGs, his CTV doesn't add either. But if that Blitzer misses 2.5 turns per game, every stun is worth 10k, no? This would abstract out player value based on the player's team, rather than the opposition, which is usually the acting team. This may not reflect on-pitch reality for everyone, as the bash tracks the inflicting coach pretty distinctly at the outer end, but it does present a stronger tie-in to the match result, as for those same outlier coaches, damage not taken is a bigger factor in outcome than damage inflicted.

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Carthage



Joined: Mar 18, 2021

Post   Posted: Oct 05, 2023 - 17:39 Reply with quote Back to top

Woah woah woah, nelphine is missing the best skill in the game on his list! Kick is life!
Kick is almost always the first skill I take when a lineman can skill up. A defense without kick feels like a complete luck fest from the first turn of the drive.

I'd also put dirty player and leader somewhere in that mix of top skills that you only need 1 of.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 05, 2023 - 18:13 Reply with quote Back to top

JackassRampant wrote:
But if that Blitzer misses 2.5 turns per game, every stun is worth 10k, no?


If the player who stunned him is worth lot of TV (think of a Block, Claw, MB,tackle killer) then the Elven Union still got a tactical/TV advantage.

If lot of TV is busy blitzing an EU Blitzer it's still good for the rest of the EU team (in terms of positioning value).

As an aside, marking the killers with rookie Linemen does the job. Generally speaking, a marked killer will lean towards blocking rather than dodging (unless there is a really juicy alternative, such as blitzing the ball carrier).

That's just to say that a game is too complex and has too many variables to analyse it just by sheer TV calculation and turns.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 05, 2023 - 23:28 Reply with quote Back to top

Carthage wrote:
Woah woah woah, nelphine is missing the best skill in the game on his list! Kick is life!
Kick is almost always the first skill I take when a lineman can skill up. A defense without kick feels like a complete luck fest from the first turn of the drive.

I'd also put dirty player and leader somewhere in that mix of top skills that you only need 1 of.


I wont argue with any of this, but I havent quite got those 4 skills (sneaky git as well as dirty player, leader, kick) into 'take on every team that can.'

The skills I previously mentioned, I believe are good enough that you can use them as the basis for every single team.

The four in question here, I think are only good enough on most teams. Dirty player for instance, doesnt have a place on a saurus. Leader is a poor choice for wood elves. Kick is something I actively gave up on for my undead.
Carthage



Joined: Mar 18, 2021

Post   Posted: Oct 06, 2023 - 03:23 Reply with quote Back to top

Sir. You have insulted my religion built upon the gospel of Kick.
Javark



Joined: Apr 19, 2015

Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2024 - 16:54 Reply with quote Back to top

Is Claw an optional skill?

I will show a scenario to better explain the subject I need to understand:

I have a CLAW+MB player that rolls 6 as armor roll after successfully blocking an AV 7+ player. Normally, Claw can be ignored, but does that mean that the Claw skill is excluded as a whole (since it's optional) and the MB can be rolled to have it break the armor or that the Claw skill must be used (and its 8+ condition ignored so that 7+ from the target player is used instead) and the MB *can't* be used on the armor roll (since MB can't be used with Claw to break the armor)?

edit: if it's optional, well, thank Nuffle Claws in Blood Bowl work like Wolverine's Claws...
edit2: I have just read on page 74 that (*) marks all the compulsory skills and Claw is not. Sorry for the silly question
Carthage



Joined: Mar 18, 2021

Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2024 - 17:27 Reply with quote Back to top

You want a really dumb one in a similar vein?
If you have mighty blow and tackle the goblin chainsaw guy and you roll a 12, you still can't use mighty blow on the injury roll because the saw modified the armor roll even if you didn't need it.
Very weird interactions in the game sometimes.
Grod



Joined: Sep 30, 2003

Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2024 - 20:47 Reply with quote Back to top

The first mighty blow player you get adds far more valuable to a team than the second mighty blow player.

Similarly, ONE mighty blow + claw player is very valuable.

Why? Because you get one blitz action per turn, so there will always be 1 player on your team that makes an outsized number of hits per game. On that player, you would forgo Guard for claws, for example.

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