xyon
Joined: Apr 19, 2005
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 Posted:
Jan 30, 2012 - 16:54 |
 
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Offical Changes to the NWL for Season #23, that would be next season for you hobgoblins out there.
1) Premier will change to a 10 team divison.
2) 3 Veteran Divs that will attempt to have 10 teams in each division.
3) Between season "friendly" match. Every team will be allowed to play one friendly match between season, this is optional and a coach does not have to play if does not want to. How this will work is that if you are playing your friendly you will "click" through the match. No pixels will move and the game will end in a 0-0 tie. Obviously there will be two kickoffs so there is allways the possibilty it is not so "friendly" to the fans as they chunk some rocks. Both teams will get all their MNG players back and get a random amount of gold and a FF roll. The winner of Premier for his "friendly will not "click through", he will be awarded a concession for the match, he will have to arrange a match with xyon or PainState to process this match. The winner of the Premier will get 2 MVPS and a lot more gold and a FF. Your friendly match will be restricted to playing ONLY NWL teams or playing a "friendly" team that Xyon or PainState will create to process any teams that cannot find a "friendly" against a fellow NWL member. IF you play your "friendly" outside the NWL there will be a penalty and if you should play more than one match there will be a penalty. The penalty will be that you start the next season at -10 League PTS. This is a "hard" rule, any violation will result in the penalty, your lamentations of ignorance will be ignored.
4) Racial parity in the league will strive to have a balance between the Bashers/Betweeners/Ballers or B/B/B for simplicity. That ratio will be maintained league wide. This will be important for "new" teams and for coaches wishing to enter the NWL. At the close of the season the B/B/B ratio will be announced so that any new coaches or "new" teams can decide what type of team they wish to play. A draft will be held to see who gets which catagory. It will be a straight up D100 random draft and first choice goes to ever has the highest roll and then proceed in a decending order.
5) "New" teams will be assigned to the Vet division. There will be NO PRESEASON for these teams. They will enter as 0 games played teams and off they go. The "new" teams will be assigned across all 3 Vet divs. and when setting up the divs there will be an equal amount of the new teams in each division, barring of course uneven numbers. The idea is that every div will have an equal amount of the new teams or as close as possible to even.
6) The Vet division will be formed up under these guidelines.
A) All the new teams will be random assigned a div. Equal amounts of "New" teams across all three divs.
b) We will add up all the teams in the Vet and group them by B/B/B
C) We will then random assign all the bashers as even as possible across all three divs. Random draw to determine which division they go in.
D) Repeat Step C for the Betweeners
E) Repeat Step C for the Ballers.
** By "stacking" the Veteran division this way we strive to have a close ratio between the B/B/B in all 3 divs. It also ensures that one or two of the divs is not severly out of balance by just drawing names out of a hat and putting them in the divs. The actual teams themselves will be sloted by random only the B/B/B ratio will be messed with.
*** The chances of the "numbers" being even are slim to none. SO every effort will be made to make the breakdown of the B/B/B as balanced as possible.
**** Premier Division will have no restriction on the B/B/B ratio.
7) For this season the winners of the 3 VET divisions will promote to Premier. The last place team in the Premier will demote. So there will be 3 promotes and 1 demote this season.
Changes for Season #24
1) The 3 Vet winners and the runner up Vet team with most league pts will promote. In case of a tie for the Runner up it will be broken by Most TD, Most CAS, TD Diferential, CAS differential and then Coin flip. Tie breakers done in descending order.
2) The Bottom 4 Teams in Premier will demote to Vet.
3) A Veteran team that is awarded a promotion may decline and stay in Vet. It is allways the goal to promte to Premier but this is in place just in case a rookie team some how wins a VET div and feels he would get slaughtered with the "big boys" because he only has 8 or 9 games under his belt. A true Veteran team is fully expected to promote.
Chages that were considered, denied or need further discussion
1) Play in format for promte/demote
2) Play off to determine the winner of the Premier
3) League prizes for winners. This is on hold until Christer fully impliments his new League Div ideas.
4) Massive KO event for NWL teams.
5) NEW teams all going into 1 VET div. together.
6) Preseason format for all NWL teams.
7) A NEW division for rookie teams to play each other whille the current season is underway.
Expectations for season #23
1) Once we get to the closing weeks of season #22 we will start asking about returning teams or make a new team.
2) Get the "new" coaches rounded up and set for the draft.
3) There will be a "hard" deadline for the season, TBD, and once that date is past the season will be over.
4) Once we go into offseason the plan will be for a two week break.
a) get Premier set up. Promte/demote
b) first week get the current B/B/B ratio figured out
c) Get the new team draft set up and completed, processed in chat.
d) Set up the 3 Vet Divs. processed in chat.
E) Set the date for the opening day of season #23
F) The plan is to transfer to the new season as fast as possible and not have abnormal "dead" periods between seasons.
As allways the floor is open for discussion and ideas. These are the changes that we are going with for the upcoming season. Feel free to comment or give us new ideas to improve the NWL.
NWL Comish HQ
Xyon
Painstate
Prophane |
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cyric612
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Jan 30, 2012 - 19:37 |
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Nice job Xyon Painstate and Prophane |
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cyric612
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jan 30, 2012 - 22:31 |
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Catalyst32
Joined: Jul 14, 2008
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Jan 30, 2012 - 23:11 |
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Great Work overall guys. BUT... You had to know I would spot the holes in this plan right way. Right?
I can't help it. I was trained as a Copy Editor by the finest Journalism Department in the country.
I am doomed to see any and all typos, misspellings, poor grammar and logical or logistical holes in things.
Beyond that I am trained to spot things that are only considered to be mistakes according to the AP Stylebook.
HOLE 1
If a Vet team chooses not to promote... then what? Does their spot go to the next best Vet team based on League Points... or the Runner Up of their Division... or does a team that should be demoted from Premier stay in Premier... or what?
HOLE 2
What happens when a team in Premier does not return for next season? What is a coach in Premier has to be kicked out? What if a coach in Premier the isn't going to be Demoted has to quit because lief is getting in the way of Blood Bowl? What is a coach in Premier that isn't going to be demoted decides he does not want to continue playing his team and wants to start a new team? How do you handle that replacement?
HOLE 3
How will league points be measured to compensate for uneven divisions with uneven games played? We cannot be certain every division will be even and we cannot be certain every game will be played in each division. Should a team be penalized for an opponent that may disappear for 2 weeks and cause a forfeit of a game that would be a likely WIN or TIE to help add league points? Should a division with only 8 games in the season to earn League Points be at a disadvantage to division with 9 games to earn League Points?
SIDE BAR 1
Why is it that only 3 teams will promote next season and only 1 will demote?
Weren't we looking at seeing 3 Promote and 3 Demote without a change?
So the 75% of the league in Vet gets not 1 extra Promotion... but the 25% of the league in Premier gets to hang on to 2 extra spots? Wouldn't 4 up 2 down be the better compromise for this season?
SIDE BAR 2
Promoting only 1 Vet Runner Up based on League Points is almost certain to Promote the weakest of the 3 Vet Runner Ups that played in the weakest Vet Division that season. The Runner Ups from the more competitive Divisions will have a tougher time raking up the extra League Points.
SIDE BAR 3
Why should this "Most TD, Most CAS, TD Diferential, CAS differential and then Coin flip" be the order for things for the Tiebreakers? What discussion went into this arbitrary decision? It seems to drastically favor Ballers over all other types of teams and also favors Bashers over Betweeners. Doesn't it?
SIDE BAR 4
The best way to settle the issues in SIDE BAR 2 and SIDE BAR 3 is clearly a Playoff. Settle the Tie Breaker and Promotion on the field not with accounting. The league voted overwhelmingly for some type of playoff or play in. But got League Points. smh. |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Jan 30, 2012 - 23:29 |
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Well I will answer each question with the rationale behind your questions or a solution to a problem that might arrise.
BUT it will have to wait till tonight.
Good points Cat |
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Comish of the: 
Last edited by PainState on %b %30, %2012 - %23:%Jan; edited 1 time in total |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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Jan 30, 2012 - 23:47 |
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Azure posted here?
Anyway, I'm 100% certain that the vast majority of those who voted wanted some form of play in. Why was this simply ignored? |
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Johnny_Ryce
Joined: Jul 07, 2004
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Jan 31, 2012 - 03:12 |
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Thanks for all of your work keeping the NWL running and relevant! Play on! |
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"He who does not venture has no luck." ~Mexican Proverb |
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Azure
Joined: Jan 30, 2007
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Jan 31, 2012 - 03:30 |
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| licker wrote: | Azure posted here?
Anyway, I'm 100% certain that the vast majority of those who voted wanted some form of play in. Why was this simply ignored? |
I had not before. I am fine with whatever - I gave my opinion before - but really - whatever is decided by the admins is fine by me. One way or another - makes very little difference. |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Jan 31, 2012 - 16:41 |
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| Catalyst32 wrote: | HOLE 1
If a Vet team chooses not to promote... then what? Does their spot go to the next best Vet team based on League Points... or the Runner Up of their Division... or does a team that should be demoted from Premier stay in Premier... or what? |
Promotion is earned by Winning a VET div or being a runner up with the most league Pts.
Now in the case of the runner up not wanting to promote then the #2 runner up vet winner with most league pts would have the chance, if he passes and it goes to the third place Vet runner up and passes then the 7th place team would remain in the Premier.
Same procedure would apply IF a rookie team who won a VET div passes on promotion due to lack of # of games.
| Catalyst32 wrote: | HOLE 2
What happens when a team in Premier does not return for next season? What is a coach in Premier has to be kicked out? What if a coach in Premier the isn't going to be Demoted has to quit because lief is getting in the way of Blood Bowl? What is a coach in Premier that isn't going to be demoted decides he does not want to continue playing his team and wants to start a new team? How do you handle that replacement? |
Well if the armagedon of IF's strikes the premier division then we will have a lot of holes to fill. Then we promote the top 3 Vet teams, promte the runner ups based on league pts and if that still is not enough to fill the premier we promote the best 3rd place team with the most league pts from the VET.
| Catalyst32 wrote: | HOLE 3
How will league points be measured to compensate for uneven divisions with uneven games played? We cannot be certain every division will be even and we cannot be certain every game will be played in each division. Should a team be penalized for an opponent that may disappear for 2 weeks and cause a forfeit of a game that would be a likely WIN or TIE to help add league points? Should a division with only 8 games in the season to earn League Points be at a disadvantage to division with 9 games to earn League Points? |
Well league play allways has the specter of uncertainty looming. League Pts is the fairest way because before the first game is played everyone is playing under the same rules. You could make it a case that it is not right that a 6 games VET team has more pts than a 8 team VET team but now we are dealing with uncertainty again. IF a 6 game team has equal or more pts than a 8 game team then the 8 game team also has more lossses and ties than the 6 game team.
So we artifiaclly come up with some way to gauge if the 6 game team would win/tie/loss, if he played out his other 2 matches, well that is subjective and not cut and dry, which goes back to now every team is not playing under the same rules.
Now if you reverse the example and say the 6 game team got shafted, he is in the range that if he got his last two matches in and won/tie or any other combo then he would have won the division. Well once again we are back into the land of uncertainty. Also if you have one team with 6 games played then you probally have a few more with 6 games. So how to we judge that div. with so much uncertainty?
Now it might not be right that a team lost out on 2 matches and did not promote BUT at the same time it is fair because every team in that specific Div were placed under the same situation of coaches quiting. So in the end winning that DIV is very important. And then the Runner up just has to hope that there is some more "movement" in the Premier.
Iam not making the case that it is right but rather that it is fair for every team in the VET divisions as a wholle.
| Catalyst32 wrote: | SIDE BAR 1
Why is it that only 3 teams will promote next season and only 1 will demote?
Weren't we looking at seeing 3 Promote and 3 Demote without a change?
So the 75% of the league in Vet gets not 1 extra Promotion... but the 25% of the league in Premier gets to hang on to 2 extra spots? Wouldn't 4 up 2 down be the better compromise for this season? |
We decided 3 up and 1 down this upcoming season because we only have 8 in the Premier right now. Expanding to 10 would allow all 3 Vet winners to promote taking the premier to 11 teams and then the bottom premier team is demoted. It was cut and dry.
| Catalyst32 wrote: | SIDE BAR 2
Promoting only 1 Vet Runner Up based on League Points is almost certain to Promote the weakest of the 3 Vet Runner Ups that played in the weakest Vet Division that season. The Runner Ups from the more competitive Divisions will have a tougher time raking up the extra League Points. |
That might be true. The Divs are set up by random draw so there is allways the possibility of uneven VET divs in terms of competition. By introducing balance in terms of B/B/B is one step towards making the divs a little more balanced in terms of competition.
All that being said we once again journey to the land of uncertainty. There are way to many vaiables that go into a season that dramatically effect how competitive a div will be. Looking at the breakdown of every VET at the start of the season you can say this team and that are the front runners, this is the weak div and so forth. But at the end of the season that probally will not be true.
Specifaclly to the point that the weakest VET runner will promote. Chances are since he had such an easy run to runner up status his team is probally also more comptetive for the Premier than some banged up runner up who limped over the finish line. Now is it right that the guy who go the easier path to promote gets rewarded, probally not. But it is fair because everyone is playing under the same rules.
| Catalyst32 wrote: | SIDE BAR 3
Why should this "Most TD, Most CAS, TD Diferential, CAS differential and then Coin flip" be the order for things for the Tiebreakers? What discussion went into this arbitrary decision? It seems to drastically favor Ballers over all other types of teams and also favors Bashers over Betweeners. Doesn't it? |
Well it was not arbitrary because that is how round robin score is calculated, TD's are weighed more heavily into your league pts.
Also we are not dealing with head to head tie breaker because they are in seperate DIVs. so we have to heve common measuring stick to break the tie. No matter how you determine the tie it will favor one team over the other.
The theory of using TD's as the first tie breaker and also in Round Robin giving them more weight is that it encourages coaches to play to win by scoring.
And no one likes the idea of a coin flip.
| Catalyst32 wrote: | SIDE BAR 4
The best way to settle the issues in SIDE BAR 2 and SIDE BAR 3 is clearly a Playoff. Settle the Tie Breaker and Promotion on the field not with accounting. The league voted overwhelmingly for some type of playoff or play in. But got League Points. smh. |
Which leads to lickers comments after yours, asking if we ignored the play in poll.
We did not ignore the play in issue. We talked about it a lot actually.
Iam not against a play in format. The main issues I have with it are these.
1)Requires coaches to actually play matches after the season, which historically have failed.
2)It delays the start of the season for the rest of the league.
3)If we promote the VET winners and then decide the rest by play in well we are only talking about a format to determine who gets one spot in premier. Inless we allow up to 5 or 6 teams possibly getting demoted from premier. Which the poll also indicated coaches did not want that much (possible) turnover.
4)When we had the discussion about how to create more excitment in the NWL. I dont think creating a Play in will fit the bill. What will make NWL more exciting is coaches participating in chat, doing match reports and most important DO NOT DELAY BETWEEN SEASONS OF OVER A MONTH. Coaches prefer to play than sit around in an empty chat room with nothing going on.
*********************
Hope this clears things up.
This is not the end of all these discussions. Play Ins and so forth are not forever off the table.
I have a feeling that basically every change that was made the vast majority are fine with.
The big point of discussion is the Play In and the # of teams possibly demoted.
If you want to continue to make the case for play in you can. I will not dismiss that discussion.
I would also say that because we are expanding to a 10 team Premier div a play in might just be the best way to detemine who gets the last two spots if we go up 3 down 3 format this season.
Discuss |
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Beerox
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
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Jan 31, 2012 - 17:58 |
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Looks good to me. For complications and odd possibilities.... that's why we have human commissioners and not a robot. Good work, fellas. |
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Sigmar1
Joined: Aug 13, 2008
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Jan 31, 2012 - 18:14 |
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Great job guys. I'm sure whatever hurdles arise will be handled as fairly as possible.
Now if I could just get to play some games in NWL 22... |
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Catalyst32
Joined: Jul 14, 2008
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Jan 31, 2012 - 19:17 |
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Thanks for clarifying and consider HOLE 1 and HOLE 2 filled in nicely.
HOLE 3
Your answer for HOLE 3 makes absolutely no sense and only addresses players missing games due to Forfeits. What about the very real situation we were fced with this season in VET with 2 9 team divisions and 1 10 team division (obviously somebody dropped so but if they had not is what I am talking about). 1 VET Division had a 1 game advantage built into the season over the other 2 divisions.
We are determining our league like the BCS does... using the eyeball test and arbitrary point systems... with no head-to-head to guide our decisions. Or more aptly we are using a system worse than the BCS... with no common opponents to use to help make our decisions... no Strength of Schedule... no real historical data about which VET Division (ie Conference) is the strongest or weakest. We have nothing REAL to base this decision on.
How do we know which team with 12 League Points is the best team if there is no head-to-head? We don't. So we are shafting 1 or 2 other teams that have done all they can do to be deserving in favor of another team based on. This is exactly why the only FAIR system is to make All 3 Vet Runner Up eligible for a Play In/Play Off to determine this on the field (or at the very least the teams TIED for the Runner Up position). Nothing Arbitrary about that. Nothing based on Human Intuition. Settle it on the field.
SIDE BAR 1
This season would have been the ideal season to Promote a 4th VET team considering the move to a 10 team Premiere meaning both VET and Premier would get the benefit of Promoting/Retaining 1 more team in Premier than usual.
It would have also been the ideal season to put into place some sort of Play Off or Play In system... especially if the chosen system paired a Premier team in danger of Demotion with a VET team vying for Promotion. The Premier teams that would have Demoted in a 3 up 3 down scenario would get a chance to retain their place and the VET teams would get a chance to elevate themselves.
Instead VET got nothing more than nothing and Premier got to be untouchable again.
SIDE BAR 2
So... here again... we are running our league like the BCS using arbitrary things like Eyeball Tests instead of settling it on the field. The land of uncertainty... how is that desirable?
SIDE BAR 3
PAIN STATE says "No matter how you determine the tie it will favor one team over the other."
Not true if the Tiebreaker is determined on the field in a game played by the teams that are tied.
| Catalyst32 wrote: | SIDE BAR 4
The best way to settle the issues in SIDE BAR 2 and SIDE BAR 3 is clearly a Playoff. Settle the Tie Breaker and Promotion on the field not with accounting. The league voted overwhelmingly for some type of playoff or play in. But got League Points. smh. |
Leaving my own quotes in here. And your list below in quotes.
"1)Requires coaches to actually play matches after the season, which historically have failed."
Primarily because those between season matches have been open ended and meaningless. None of them ever settled anything that was not already settled. Most of them were just a KO Tournament for "fun". I don't remember a single post-season Tournament that had as the prize Promotion to Premier (the only division you can win a REAL Championship in) for the next season. There has never been a serious Carrot at the end of the Post Season AND/OR a defined Deadline for the game to be played before you FORFEIT your chance to play in Premier.
There has never been a SIngle Game or 2 Game KO that had such a great prize for the Winner.
"2)It delays the start of the season for the rest of the league."
No. It does not. Not if there is a strict deadline on these games. All VET teams/coaches that finish the season as a Runner Up will know they still have a chance to Promote. They have no reason to go away for months at a time because they know they will likely have another game to play.
If Admins will figure out who is eligible for this game right away and schedule it right away with a 7 day deadline (or whatever) on the game before FORFEIT the game will be over within the 2 week turnaround you claim to be working towards. In the short term Premier will have a spot for FILLER to be filled by the winner of this Play In game.
VET can also be seeded and drawn holding a FILLER spot for the teams still in the Playoff. There will not be any B/B/B Balance issues... because these teams will all be counted amongst the teams in the league and therefore counted in the B/B/B Balance.
The only thing that will potentially be delayed is the slotting of VET Divisions... and even then that will not be delayed IF the two teams in the Play In are both Bashers, both Ballers or both Betweeners.
BUT... since VET is less likely to have 3 10 team divisions playing a 9 game schedule like Premier there is no harm in having VET start a week later than Premier. VET is more likely going to have a 7 or 8 game schedule to play and would finish earlier each season instead of at the same time as Premier.
3)If we promote the VET winners and then decide the rest by play in well we are only talking about a format to determine who gets one spot in premier. Inless we allow up to 5 or 6 teams possibly getting demoted from premier. Which the poll also indicated coaches did not want that much (possible) turnover.
I don't see the problem with that. The decision has been made to Promote and Demote 4 up and 4 down starting next season. Why shouldn't that 4th Spot Premier for a VET team be fought for by teams in the VET divisions? The VET Champions earned their Automatic Bid... the VET Runner Ups have earned a Play Off Bid and in that Play Off they can earn their Promotion.
I have always supported seeing the 3 VET Runner Ups and the 7th Place Premier team facing off in a 4 team KO to determine who Promotes/Remains in Premier. Giving the bottom half of Premier something to fight for too. The battle for 6th, 7th and 8th place in Premier becomes a dogfight... 6th place is safe, 8th place is OUT and 7th place is in jeopardy but not out. 7th place can keep their spot by winning 2 games... rather than getting Demoted and having to win their Division.
I certainly don't think 6 teams should get Demoted from Premier and 5 teams is really rough and did not get much support. My preferred method only Demotes 3 teams for certain and a 4th team if they can't prove they are better than VET Runner Ups.
4)When we had the discussion about how to create more excitment in the NWL. I dont think creating a Play in will fit the bill. What will make NWL more exciting is coaches participating in chat, doing match reports and most important DO NOT DELAY BETWEEN SEASONS OF OVER A MONTH. Coaches prefer to play than sit around in an empty chat room with nothing going on.
Without a Play In for Vet Runner Ups... my season and my interest in this season is probably already over until next season due to a rough patch of luck (unless someone gets a WIN over the team I lost to) and many other members are in the same boat or worse. With a Play In I still have something to play for NOW... rather than playing for team survival and development. A Wild Card chance is EXCITING... no chance is BORING.
All of the other things you mention are things that you cannot enforce at all. They rely on the Free Will of League Members. The only thing you can enforce is the time off between seasons.
*********************
I have a feeling that basically every change that was made the vast majority are fine with.
AGREED.
I would also say that because we are expanding to a 10 team Premier div a play in might just be the best way to detemine who gets the last two spots if we go up 3 down 3 format this season.
AGREED. |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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| Posted:
Feb 02, 2012 - 15:29 |
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| Catalyst32 wrote: | Thanks for clarifying and consider HOLE 1 and HOLE 2 filled in nicely.............
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Thanks for the input Catalyst...I will paraphrase that above posting as this.
"I think a playin is what we need and Iam sticking to my guns."
Fair assesment?
Ok so Iam going to consider every other "issue" that was changed/resolved as done, no problems.
Lets deal directly and only with the play in discussion.
Iam about to throw out some Playin options....and IF we go with one of them then it is all on the coaches who wanted a Playin IF it blows up in our faces. Got it?
1)up 3 down 3 format.
The final two spots are determined by a playin.
The top vet runner up plays the second Vet runner up.
The #5 Premier team plays the #3 Vet runner up. If at the end of OT it is still a tie the Premeir team keeps his spot, we ignore what ever the result of the coin flip is.
The Vet runner ups are determined by league pts.
2)All three Vet runner ups and the top 3 rd place VET team enter a 4 team KO format tourney for 1 spot.
The 3 Demoted Premier Teams and the 3 rd place VET team with most league pts enter a 4 man KO format tourney.
3rd place Vet team determined by league pts.
3)Because of retirment of premier coach/team we need to fill more holes in the premier than just 2 we will take the next 4 Vet teams and put them in a KO for the extra spot OR if we need more than 1 extra then the Playin will be head to head format.
For Season #24
The top Runner up Vet team plays the #7 Premier team in a head to head...tie at end of OT goes to the Premier team.
*******************
I will discuss the issue as related to uneven Vet divs and uneven VET divs due to missed games in another post. Lets keep this about Playin for now. |
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