veron
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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 Posted:
Oct 19, 2003 - 15:37 |
 
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| sourwyrm wrote: | Wood Elf: 47 / 16 / 37 (W/T/L)
Skaven: 46 / 16 / 37
Amazon: 46 / 17 / 37
Dwarf: 42 / 20 / 39
This should speak for itself. |
I take these percentages are taken from FUMBBL statistics. As such, they don't speak for anything. Most of the games in FUMBBL are Open in nature, which means teams can choose who to play, including the race of the opposing team. Because of this you shouldn't jump into too many conclusions based solely on these stats. |
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Mr-Klipp
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Oct 20, 2003 - 00:22 |
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Dwarves need tackle. Yes, it is only usefull against certain teams, but those are exactly the teams that dwarves have the biggest problems with otherwise. If you took away tackle then the quick teams with lots of dodge would nearly never lose to dwarves, because they could dodge away and then just outrun them. |
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swilhelm73
Joined: Oct 06, 2003
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| Posted:
Oct 20, 2003 - 00:32 |
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| fbbl wrote: | | we might have something going here tackle is a boring ability that is no use agains some and to usefull against others . so take away tackle and give them something allways usefull like standfirm ,then try to break that dworf line =) |
Hmm, standfirm would make more roleplaying sense for dwarves then tackle. They are supposed to be tough little buggers who won't back down (standfirm), not agile don't fall for the fake types (tackle).
It would hurt dwarf D against agile teams, but help them out against other bashers, so I'd say overall it would run about even in the end.
Maybe you should float this idea over at talkbloodbowl.com? |
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cataphract
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Oct 20, 2003 - 00:36 |
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hmmm... yeah but don't forget dwarfs can't take wizards... i know it's not implemented yet but yeah balancing factor...
ever seen a fireball bust a cage? dwarfs have but it's their cage!! |
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Mr-Klipp
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Oct 20, 2003 - 01:34 |
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| swilhelm73 wrote: | | fbbl wrote: | | we might have something going here tackle is a boring ability that is no use agains some and to usefull against others . so take away tackle and give them something allways usefull like standfirm ,then try to break that dworf line =) |
Hmm, standfirm would make more roleplaying sense for dwarves then tackle. They are supposed to be tough little buggers who won't back down (standfirm), not agile don't fall for the fake types (tackle).
It would hurt dwarf D against agile teams, but help them out against other bashers, so I'd say overall it would run about even in the end.
Maybe you should float this idea over at talkbloodbowl.com? |
It would not run even, because dwarves do not need help against basher teams, while they do against agile teams. What you would end up with is dwarves finding games against agile teams extremely difficult to win, while they would have an easy time against basher teams, and that is not a balance. |
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Surre
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Oct 20, 2003 - 12:45 |
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Dwarfes are by far NOT too powerful, I would rate them amongst the worst teams there are. There major disadvantage is that they have huge trouble to score since they cant make a break through. Often it is not very difficult just to dealy them a complete drive. Then score your 1-0 victory by just running by them and laugh at their 4 squares movement.
But on the other hand I do not think they are too bad either. All races can not be exactly equally good, and they fall into the region of balanced teams. A lot of people seems to enjoy playing them after all.
Looking at statistics it is obvious that elfes are too good, and WE especially. Maybe one should concider altering them a bit. For instance WD are too good IMHO, drop there movement to 7 or loose one skill. |
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veron
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Oct 20, 2003 - 13:20 |
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| Surre wrote: | | Looking at statistics it is obvious that elfes are too good, and WE especially. Maybe one should concider altering them a bit. For instance WD are too good IMHO, drop there movement to 7 or loose one skill. |
See my previous post about jumping into too many conclusions based on FUMBBL statistics. |
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Hecropolix
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Oct 20, 2003 - 14:07 |
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Dwarves should NOT have OGRES!!!!! |
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Aequitas
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Oct 20, 2003 - 14:27 |
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Dwarves are definitely not the worst team out there. As Klipp said, they need Tackle to have a chance against the evil Elven races. But a good dwarven coach with good placement can win over 70% of the time. Drop the Ogre and I think the team is quite balanced. But still, people will refuse to play them once the longbeards start gaining guard/mb, etc. Heck most teams look at my longbeards instead of my positional players and decide whether to play based on how much guard I have.
This is why I'm slowly but surely moving most of my dwarf teams to the Tournament divison so that I can find opponents. |
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Britnoth
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Oct 20, 2003 - 15:03 |
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| Mr-Klipp wrote: | | Dwarves need tackle. Yes, it is only usefull against certain teams, but those are exactly the teams that dwarves have the biggest problems with otherwise. If you took away tackle then the quick teams with lots of dodge would nearly never lose to dwarves, because they could dodge away and then just outrun them. |
Teams that start with dodge all round are:
Amazons: ag 3 ma 6.
Goblins: ag 3, ma 6.
Halflings: ag 3, ma 5.
How are these 'quick teams'? 
The really fast teams you say they need help against: elves + skaven don't have much dodge except on a few positional players, while the stuntys and amazons rely on their dodge like norse dwarves etc rely on starting with block. |
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Surre
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Oct 20, 2003 - 15:59 |
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| Quote: | | Surre wrote: | | Looking at statistics it is obvious that elfes are too good, and WE especially. Maybe one should concider altering them a bit. For instance WD are too good IMHO, drop there movement to 7 or loose one skill. |
See my previous post about jumping into too many conclusions based on FUMBBL statistics. |
I don't think I'm jumping into too many conclusion by stating that WE is too powerful. The statistics is quite clear about this, and with FUMBBL's great number of games this can't be dismissed. You arguee that one can choose opponent. Sure, but that can everyone else as well. And it is a good enough win margin for WE to state that they are too powerful.
I do not know what kind of statistics you are referring to to be able to state a fact. You rarely get a more well funded statistical base than FUMBBL's amount of games.
I do, though, agree with your way of arguing in general. Most people can see 10 games and state this and that as it is a universal law. But I do not think that the result so far by the WE-caoches is flaw in the beginning that will even out in the end. Do you think this is the case? |
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HoboJed
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Oct 20, 2003 - 16:40 |
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| Surre wrote: | | I don't think I'm jumping into too many conclusion by stating that WE is too powerful. The statistics is quite clear about this, and with FUMBBL's great number of games this can't be dismissed. You arguee that one can choose opponent. Sure, but that can everyone else as well. And it is a good enough win margin for WE to state that they are too powerful. |
The point is that the general trend for Wood Elf tems is to only play other agile/fast teams. If 80% (Not sure if that is even remotly accurate, but for all I know it could even be an underestimate) of all Wood Elf games are against agile/fast teams, then the statistics are obviously distorted.
If you don't agree with that, then think about if dwarf teams played 50% (or even just 10%) of their games against equal strength Amazon teams...imagine the distortion of the win% that would cause.
On top of that, Wood Elf teams are good at scoring, and therefore the only real way of playing the Wood Elf team is to win with them (sounds obvious but wait for what I have to say). A lot of "bashy" coaches get so caught up in the bashing that they don't actualy play to win...it's quite possible to enjoy the game without even attempting to score with a bashy team, so often a player will get so much into the mind set of bashing the opponent that they don't play the game with the aim of scoring (they seem to assume that it will sort itself out...and some times it does). Some coaches (like deathgerbil) have taken this to the next level, by simply not caring about scoring at all, and for them, winning the game is just an added bonus evey now and then. All this means that bashy teams (in general) tend to lose more games than they should when they play agile/fast teams.
Going further, I would say that new players will gravitate (once again, I'm only talking in general) towards bashy teams (they tend to last longer than agile/fast teams if you make mistakes). Therefore the bashy teams have probably experienced a far greater amount of losses in the hands of developing coaches than other teams.
When you take all of this into account (and I've probably only scraped the surface), you can see that the statistics are very skewed, and cannot stand on their own. |
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Jahira
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Oct 20, 2003 - 16:50 |
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Lol, a bunch of no where to use complaint's, and those stats you see in the fumbbl section about woddies being Da bomb?, well gimmi a coatch that have a highranked woddie team that play's basherteams like dwarfs anytime they ask, like dwarfs might do?... my own point being dwarfs are a team that might look scary but so is chaos (PO RSC) Norse PO MB JUMPUP? or what about orcs having 4 st 4 dude's an ogre to throw gobbo's and alot of positional players, seems anytime a basher team get's good they are unballanced, but then give the dwarfs the oneturner abillity asweal and see how much fun that would be.
I think people complaint too much about other teams then their own favorite, the game have been played for more years then most players have lived and they change the rules for a reason not to bugger you m8's 
But i'm happy with the races as they are now, the thing people need to start talking about should be DIV X (TESTTEAMS)??? now there's a team you might get a rule or two changed in  |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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Oct 22, 2003 - 18:39 |
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I completly agree with HoboJed.
Dwarves are one of the favourites on newbies, because the opponent doesn´t destroy your team, when you make some major mistakes. Thus the win-% has no use for argueing.
My own dwarven team has a 10/4/3 record, and the 3 losses were only against elven coaches, who got a blitz-result and some luck.
When starting the team, longbeards are as good as most positional-players of other races and later, only the look at 7 guard/mightyblow Longbeards with some StandFirm in between scares most, if not EVERY coach. Not mentioning the positional-players.
With their incredible armor all over, they have to fear only lucky coaches, so they get more lasting injuries through aging than through on-pitch-injuries. When piling-on will be changed, dwarves will be next to unvulnerable in a team-context, apart from claws+RSC. |
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Tinkywinky
Joined: Aug 25, 2003
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| Posted:
Oct 22, 2003 - 19:34 |
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If you don't count goblins as a real team only amazon suffer a huge minus against dwarfs, the elf and human teams can just outrun the dwarfs for the win. |
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