neverborn
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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 Posted:
Oct 15, 2003 - 04:42 |
 
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Hey guys, this is just a thread about an ideal structure for SWL, the idea of a constant league really got me thinking and i reckon it is a great idea, but we need a structure that will allow for the realities of fumbbl.
So here is my best approximation of a structure that will work:
* A sequential series of 8 team leagues - Premier, div 1, div 2, div 3 etc
* 2 teams are promoted from each league and 2 are relegated at the end of each series.
* New teams start at the bottom of the bottom league at the start of a new season, or if we have enough they start a new division on the bottom.
* As teams get stronger they will climb the leagues, but have stronger opponents, and as they get weaker they will drop leagues until they can rebuild and go back up again. This lets people use the same team no matter how bashed they get.
* However, people will still want to retire their team, or retire from fumbbl, this structure can compensate for this common evantuality.
Here goes:
At the end of a season, a team that is being retired, counts as a relegation spot from the league it is in, even if it didnt finish last or second last. So if i retire my team from the premier league, it, and one other team, will be moved to division 2.
The top two teams from division 2 will be promoted to the premier and the bottom two team from division 2 will be relegated to divsion 3.
In division 3, the top three teams will be promoted to division 2.
This patter of three up, two down continues right to the bottom, where it can no longer continue, and a new team fills the extra spot. Obviously if more than one team quits, as is likely the same pattern is used, but with extra numbers in the equation.
I hope that makes sense.
The benefits of this model:
* New teams can join and have a chance to play against similar str opponents, and have a chance to build a good side and move up in the tourney, without needing to play games before joining the competition.
* Teams can leave and it won't break the structure.
* You can keep the same team the whole time and build and rebuild it time and time again.
* The best teams will play the best teams and the middle play the middle and the weak play the weak, everyone will be playing against similar str opponents all the time.
Obviously this is just an idea, i imagine there are lots of other models out there, any comments or feedback would be great. I just posted this to help out twahn and hopefully give him some ideas.
Long live the Southern Waste Lands! |
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ClayInfinity
Joined: Aug 15, 2003
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Oct 15, 2003 - 05:08 |
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Twahn,
I agree with you in its entirety...
I think 8 team divs are best too... 7 rounds is fine.
Also, is there a proviso for a KO so the chance of a Premier League team meeting the bums of Div 3 is real...
If you do have a KO, then I would prefer a 1st past the post system for the League matches... Playoffs at the end of League seasons would only ensure the better teams got more games and hence improved and hence broadened the gap between the also rans...
PS - the KO tournament should only be a 32 team straight knock out. If we have greater than 32 teams (ie more than 4 divsions) then you need to get to Div 3 (the fourth division) to take part...
PPS - Can the league scoring be simpliefied as well. 3pts for a win, 1 for a draw. No bonus points for TD's, Cas's etc etc... too confusing in a 1st past the post system... |
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Shifty
Joined: Sep 23, 2003
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Oct 15, 2003 - 05:13 |
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Looks great. Count me in! |
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vigil
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Oct 15, 2003 - 07:40 |
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My favourite (and IMHO the fairest) socring system is the 7 point system - where 7 points are distributed between the winner and the loser, depending on a set of factors.
Both teams get 1 point for playing.
The winner gets 3 points.
The player who scored the most CAS gets one point.
The winner gets 1 point if he's more than 1 TD ahead of the loser.
The loser gets 1 point if he's only 1 TD behind the loser.
In the case of a tie, the winner is the player who scored the most CAS. If both scored equal CAS, both players get 2 points.
In the case of a tie of CAS both players get 0.5 points.
...
This system leads to a set of different results
6-1 Total Victory
5-2 Major Victory
4-3 Minor Victory
3-4 Minor Loss
2-5 Major Loss
1-6 Total Loss
...
The reason I like this system is that first and foremost it awards winning the game. Then it gives a point to the TD machine teams and the CAS machine teams, either to mitigate their loss or reward their skill. And it ensures a range of results that is controlled but diverse.
Currently we reward playing the game foremost and then the ability to score touchdowns. This means that games of awful luck (some of those 4-0 beauties) combined with the speed and agility to capitalise on it has given AG teams an ability to shoot forward. This will of course become even more of an issue if any skaven or woodelves score that double or 10 on their catchers.
I'm not sure if Twahn meant for this to happen, and if you believe it makes for a good game, I'm not complaining. My team is coping by themselves. I just like the 7 point system because it hands out controlled awards for all aspects of the game, and doesn't let you runaway with points just because you're very good at ONE aspect of the game to the detriment of others - a total victory can only be accomplished if you outplayed, outlasted and outscored - not if you smashed your opponent to nothing or scored 4-0 without engaging them on the line. |
Last edited by vigil on %b %15, %2003 - %07:%Oct; edited 1 time in total |
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Twahn
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Oct 15, 2003 - 07:44 |
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| neverborn wrote: | | Lots of stuff... |
Simple answer. Yes.
I don't get your two down, three up thing though. How does that work? I say any team that is retired or kicked either automatically fills one of the relegation spots (savings 7th from relegation), or, possibly better as it allows for more than two quitters, creates an extra relegation spot meaning that 3rd from the lower division is also promoted.
| Clay wrote: | | Twahn, I agree with you in its entirety... |
A good policy in general, but probably best to wait until I say something! 
With the End of Season Cup...
We will DEFINATELY be having one. All teams will be involved, even those not in a league at present. The FUMBBL guys are working on a seeded KO system so that'll help us if it's implemented in time. Otherwise, we'll work something out (hopefully, there'll just be 32 of us and it'll be easy as).
I'm toying with the idea of maybe having charity cups run by some of you guys too. These could include only a few teams and could be race specific, grudge matches, etc.
Maybe not though, we'll see...
We'll have no playoffs for promotion/relegation as it'll just slow things down.
With this current season...
The winners of each of the Regionals will be promoted to the Premiership. The top 6 Premiers will stay on as well.
The remaining 6 Premiers will join the second Division, as will the runners up of the Regionals.
Positions 3 through 6 from each of the Regionals will form the third Division.
Everyone else will pile into Division 4, with further Divisions being created as necessary.
How's that sound? I like 8 team Divisions. A quick Season's a good season. |
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ClayInfinity
Joined: Aug 15, 2003
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Oct 15, 2003 - 07:46 |
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SOunds interesting, except I don't like the half point issue for ties...
Can't it be an 8 point spread with 4 for the game itself and a 2-2 split for a draw??
Plus, whilst I can see you intention, I have no idea if the fumbbl tourney system/manager can handle that detail... |
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FLo711
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Oct 15, 2003 - 07:49 |
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The premier and divisions (1,2,..) sounds great to me.
Gotta say though, that I'm a big fan of playoffs, 1st past the post is boring if one team gets an early lead, its also good to see the underdogs get a chance at winning it all.
As to the playoffs making teams too powerful, we all know more games dont necessarily make for a more powerful team, you can get Injuries and when your team gets a decent ranking, improvment is quite slow, 2 or 3 games don't make that much difference.
8 teams in a div? I would prefer 10-12, 8 is such a short season. But I'm easy about this, 1st past the post though is dodgy way to decide a champ IMHO. |
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(Ex-Tyrant) Clay's Blog: Lime Kettles |
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Twahn
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Oct 15, 2003 - 07:58 |
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| vigil wrote: | | Some good ideas... |
Looks good. Our current scoring system does seem weighted towards teams that can score big victories (though you'll notice there isn't exactly a mass of fast teams up the top, is there?).
You can't give the bashy teams the win in a tie though just 'cause they beat on the elfies.
Also, I'm a bit remiss to give points for killing your opponents. Winning is what I want to encourage. Killing players in a league situation bears its own reward...
Maybe we should just have the old 3 for a win, 1 for a draw method? Does it need to be complex?
| Flo wrote: | | 8 teams in a div? I would prefer 10-12, 8 is such a short season. But I'm easy about this, 1st past the post though is dodgy way to decide a champ IMHO. |
I like 8 teams. We may have Playoffs still for the Premier, but not for the lesser Divisions. Far too time consuming!
| Clay wrote: | | Plus, whilst I can see you intention, I have no idea if the fumbbl tourney system/manager can handle that detail... |
FUMBBL's got it covered. No worries... |
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FLo711
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Oct 15, 2003 - 08:35 |
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okay 8 it is 
As for scoring system, Im happy enough with 3 for a win 1 for loss etc... the others ounde, well, complicated, but its Twahn thats got too handle it so thats up 2 u.
Lastly PLEASE have playoffs for the premier league, thats what its all about, reaching the premier league, playing through a grueling 8 game season, fighting with the top tesm of the premier to get to the grand final, and then winning it all with a glorious championship victory!
Thats a worthy aspiration for any team i reckon. |
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(Ex-Tyrant) Clay's Blog: Lime Kettles |
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Twahn
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Oct 15, 2003 - 08:43 |
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Okay, playoffs it is (but only for the Premiership). I just can't resisit a capital please... |
_________________
Founder of the Southern Wastes League
DonTwahn's Dungeon = Cheap Miniatures! Check it out... |
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ClayInfinity
Joined: Aug 15, 2003
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Oct 15, 2003 - 09:06 |
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Playoffs or Not...
It matters little in the end, I am happy to take the trophy either way |
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whitey
Joined: Sep 19, 2003
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Oct 15, 2003 - 11:01 |
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But if there are playoffs you have to allow non-finals teams some extra games, not that i have to worry  |
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neverborn
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Oct 15, 2003 - 11:30 |
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no you dont need to let them get extra games, its just part of the deal
you win some or you lose some, in the scale of things in 4 seasons time a few extra games will mean nothing.
I will give a long example of how the quitting team thing works in my next post
but it will work fine, its a pretty simple formula. |
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cataphract
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Oct 15, 2003 - 11:34 |
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I like the seven point system to be honest...
[quote=twahn]Also, I'm a bit remiss to give points for killing your opponents. Winning is what I want to encourage. Killing players in a league situation bears its own reward... [/quote]
honestly the "rewards" of winning a 5-0 victory are better at the moment (5 league points and 15 SPP). wheras causing 5 casualties (a phenominal effort in any ones books) earns you 10spp.
Remember also only 1 in six casualites will result in a death and 1 in 3 will result in a SI, half of those (ie 1 in 6)resulting in a niggle or stat drop. that means there is a 1 in 3 chance of an injury resulting in a permanent effect... and we havn't factored apothecaries into the equation yet. thus the permanent rewards for "Killing players in a league situation" aren't really all that great.
However giving the cas count 1 point is probably a fitting reward.
[quote=twahn]You can't give the bashy teams the win in a tie though just 'cause they beat on the elfies. [/quote]
I think you should. scoring touchdowns is what elves excel at... bashing players is what orcs excel at. If the orcs are able to hold their own in the scoring category and win in the casualty count then by all means the orcs should be awarded the victory. since they played as good as the elves in the elfy aspect of the game and better in the orcy aspect.
at the moment, due mostly to the open nature of fumbbl, people have become way to attached to their players and thus place an enourmous stigma on injuries and fouling. the fact is that elves are supposed to die more frequently than orcs. It balances with the fact that they earn spps at a much higher rate. and the fact is most of the time, in league play, it does balance out.
The way the game is designed no team should really have a TR higher than 200.
however this is not the case in the open fumbbl league. There are a couple of imbalances in fumbbl the first is caused by the fact that teams can avoid tough opponents. the good thing about a league is that this imbalance is removed. as such the stigma which is attached to losing players should be removed too.
the second imbalance is that coaches can create teams for the sole purpose of destroying other teams. since there is no great reward for winning games you can ignore skills like sure hands pass dodge etc and go for RSC PO DP Frenzy etc with the mission to cripple opponents teams. again this is removed from league play as the rewards for winning matches are there. sure you can make a muderous team but in all likelyhood you'll only win the casualty count... you'll be phenomenally outplayed and thus loose both the score and spp count. as the league progresses your team will fall behind since they have eant insufficient spp to remain competetive! there is a reason a TD is worth more than a cas. since you're not able to pick your oponents you will have a lower TR than the ones you face since you play by a schedule etc etc.
so what am I saying. bassically the "rewards" twahn mentioned are a lot less in league play. I think a single league point for casualty count is a fair reward. since if you win the match by more than two TD you will receive 4 league points (3 for winning) which again is a "better" reward.
the imbalances that come into the game are removed by the nature of league play. notice how all the teams in the open league have a vaguely similar TR/STR... |
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"the eunuch should not take pride in its chastity"
Last edited by cataphract on %b %15, %2003 - %11:%Oct; edited 1 time in total |
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neverborn
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Oct 15, 2003 - 11:37 |
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END OF SEASON, the teams, appropriatly named, finish in the following order. The teams that finish 1-2 in each div go up and the teams that finish in the bottom two get relegated. You can figure that bit out yourself, teams 7 and 8 swap with 9 and 10, etc.
Prem
team1
team2
team3
team4
team5
team6
team7
team8
Div 1
team9
team10
team11
team12
team13
team14
team15
team16
Div 2
team17
team18
team19
team20
team21
team22
team23
team24
Div 3
team25
team26
team27
team28
team29
team30
team31
team32
NOW, what if team 4 quits you say? well here is the answer! team 4 and team 8 are relegated to division 2.
team 9 and 10 goto the premier league.
teams 15 and 16 goto division 3 as we would expect but teams 17, 18 and 19 all get promoted to div 2.
teams 23 and 24 get relegated to div 3 but again teams 25, 26 and 27 all get promoted to div 2.
Then in div 3 we have only 7 teams, and that spot is replaced by a new team, who is tr100 and playing in the easiest league.
The reason for this is to benefit teams that do well, over teams that do badly, this helps everyone because if you finish bottom two you would prefer to play easier people, and if you finish 3rd you would prefer to play better people.
Does this make is clearer for people? |
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