JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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 Posted:
Jan 19, 2009 - 14:38 |
 
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| Chingis wrote: | | JanMattys wrote: | Performance is a Win/Tie/Loss thing only.
What you call performance is beefing-up.
In terms of performance, elves periodically taking a beating in an even-ts-matchups are perfect. As I said, it's just that some people hate to see their pixels die. |
You're absolutely correct, save I feel from the last part that I have quoted.
Bloodbowl is about winning the game that you're playing, scoring more TD's that the other team. That's the fun of the game, coming up with the best tactics to do this. However, there's another part of Bloodbowl which is also a source of enjoyment to most, if not all, players: growing your team over several games.
If elves (for instance) die too fast, then the second part of the Bloodbowl (the team management bit) may dimish to the point that it is no longer a source of enjoyment. Indeed, during the game, the players enjoyment of that may be spoiled by worrying too much about the team management part of the game, hence spoiling both parts of the game (i.e. he can't go for the touchdown because he knows that if he fails he will get stomped by the 6th dirty player on the opposition team, leaving him with 5 players for the next match).
Elves should die quicker than orcs (for instance), but they shouldn't die too quick, because that just ruins the team management side of the game, and people will obviously want to play a team with which they can experience the entirety of the game. For instance, if elves all die before they even get a skill, there's going to be a problem. If elf teams always lose too many players that they can't reasonably expect to win the next game, there's going to be a problem.
i.e. It's not "My pixels died!" but rather "My pixels died too fast and/or too frequently for me to get any enjoyment out of this part of the game!" that will put people off picking such a team. I reckon people will pick a team where they know that their +MA, +AG, dodging, side-stepping, AV 3, ST 2, leaping touchdown-machine will die, so long as:
a) There's a reasonable chance of being able to train him in the first place;
b) They get a reasonable amount of fun out of him before he gets pounded. |
I understand your concerns.
That's why elves have access to high agility and agility skills.
Dodge prevents them from falling.
Sidestep is the perfect anti-gangfoul skill
Ag4 adds excellent manoveurability, which means better deployment and better positioning. Again, a great anti-fouling and anti-blockwar tool.
As for the "fun out of him before he gets pounded" part, all I have to say is that part of the fun is to keep him alive despite the opponents targeting him the whole time. The Wardancer's life (as well as the Werewolf's life, or the gutter runner's life) is short and bright. 
What I'm saying, is that the better the coach of elven teams, the less he is likely to suffer the much-dreaded teamkilling match. Elves DO get casualties against, but in my experience inflicting heavy casualties over great elven coaches is extremely difficult.
Same goes for Skaven. There's a lot of skaven teams in R that do not cherrypick and have had astonishing winning records over hundreds of games.
I still think that the problem for so many bashers in the Box is that all those tough-and-mighty bashy coaches take pride in their manly av9 armors but they don't have the guts (or the attitude towards challenges) it takes to go into a random division with a regular teams not particularly suited for durability.
Which kinda sucks. |
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Mr_Foulscumm
Joined: Mar 05, 2005
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| Posted:
Jan 19, 2009 - 15:09 |
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I stopped reading after the first page.
Quick, sum it up for me. |
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PurpleChest
Joined: Oct 25, 2003
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Sum up:
Position A: Wahey, being bashy is natural if you take my opinions as facts and all is good here, chill out and let me hurt you.
Position B: position A is a moron, his opinions are not facts. But all is good here.
Position C: all is not good here, and pos A+B arnt helping, we need osme sort of 'prison inmate' style system, where we take it in turns to play the 'lady'. AKA 'we haz vays of makings you teh cherry'.
Position D: Sod this, Im off to [R]. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Jan 19, 2009 - 15:25 |
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I agree with almost all you have said but I don't see why we should have to use teams that we don't want to use.
I don't want to use dwarves or orcs in the box. As I don't play very much it would be a real pain to have to fill some quota. That would pretty much kill the fun.
So far my Dark Elves have done just fine in the box. You may say that I lack the guts or balls to use wood elves.
I'll say that it's my (limited) leisure time and I'll use them when I'm ready.
You may as well moan about gutless AV8 pixel huggers  |
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PurpleChest
Joined: Oct 25, 2003
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Gah, i iz teh noob. meant to edit, didnt. (shamed) |
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Last edited by PurpleChest on %b %19, %2009 - %15:%Jan; edited 1 time in total |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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| Posted:
Jan 19, 2009 - 15:32 |
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| koadah wrote: |
I agree with almost all you have said but I don't see why we should have to use teams that we don't want to use.
I don't want to use dwarves or orcs in the box. As I don't play very much it would be a real pain to have to fill some quota. That would pretty much kill the fun.
So far my Dark Elves have done just fine in the box. You may say that I lack the guts or balls to use wood elves.
I'll say that it's my (limited) leisure time and I'll use them when I'm ready.
You may as well moan about gutless AV8 pixel huggers |
I am not a fan of a rule where you have to submit different teams to blackbox if you don't want to. Everybody is entitled to play the way he wants to.
My posts were just to tell Frankenstein that if bashers feel it's THAT bad to lose players its fine. Just please don' t try and seel us the "hey, it's all good and fair" thing.
People have the right to create Dorfs, Orcs and Khemri in DivB.
I have the right to shake my head at them and laugh at their pathetic needs for a misguided sense of security. Oh, and I also have the right to slam the door in their face when they knock and try to sell me their "DivB is a paradise, come get some, you'll like it" crap. |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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| Posted:
Jan 19, 2009 - 15:43 |
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My position is:
In order to get more racial diversity, don't create rules to enforce to play what you don't want, but use some positive discremination.
And not something about win. Some ratings that would boost your ego.
(for exemple, who never cheked his awards, or the ranking of his team in TR or TS? Wouldn't you be tempted to have the currect best ranked vampire team? Be the Vampire coach of the month? IMO that would encourage some wider choices of races while letting everyone plays as he feels) |
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Ash
Joined: Feb 03, 2004
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| Posted:
Jan 19, 2009 - 16:05 |
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One thing is concerning me. What the link between a successful great team and TS/TR?
I think an elf team can go for a while around TR/TS 190-210. It s not that hard, not even in the box. What really matter to know if it s a great successful team is the win/loss, nothing else.
My own DE team is in this bracket for 12 games now. It s not like I don t want them to go higher, it s just I don t see it as an objective. There is only two objectives : to win more than I lose and to survive. Actually it s hard enough that way 
But I do have an issue : 17 last games with them => 4 chaos, 4 dwarves, 4 orcs, 3 khemry, 2 ogres. Where are the others race? If I was TR/TS 250, I would understand but you can t tell me it s that hard for human, norse, elfes, woodies, HE, zons and undead to reach TR/TS 200.
So I m jumping to the only conclusion I can see... there is just not that much of them in the box. |
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Ash
Joined: Feb 03, 2004
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| Posted:
Jan 19, 2009 - 16:07 |
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| sk8bcn wrote: | My position is:
In order to get more racial diversity, don't create rules to enforce to play what you don't want, but use some positive discremination.
And not something about win. Some ratings that would boost your ego.
(for exemple, who never cheked his awards, or the ranking of his team in TR or TS? Wouldn't you be tempted to have the currect best ranked vampire team? Be the Vampire coach of the month? IMO that would encourage some wider choices of races while letting everyone plays as he feels) |
I disagree... it s easyer to be the greatest coach of vampire of the month (or years, whatever) if there is only 5 vampires team out there....
It s a lot harder to be the best orc coach as you have a lot of competition...
So it s going the other way you want to, isn t it? |
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Mnemon
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jan 19, 2009 - 17:02 |
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| Ash wrote: | | So I m jumping to the only conclusion I can see... there is just not that much of them in the box. |
Which is quite likely. Two examples - as I happen to watch those lists:
Elf teams by games played, same for Lizardmen.
Compare to Chaos, Chaos Dwarves, Orc, Dwarves.
I.e. The lower set of these races (relatively, Chaos Dwarves a bit of an exception) at least play more matches than the two mentioned above. Doesn't say whether there are more or less teams but the volume of games played seems different.
-Mnemon
EDIT: Broken BBCode fixed. --veron
thanks, was typing too quick --Mnemon |
Last edited by Mnemon on %b %19, %2009 - %17:%Jan; edited 3 times in total |
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Kryten
Joined: Sep 02, 2003
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| Chingis wrote: | i.e. It's not "My pixels died!" but rather "My pixels died too fast and/or too frequently for me to get any enjoyment out of this part of the game!" that will put people off picking such a team. I reckon people will pick a team where they know that their +MA, +AG, dodging, side-stepping, AV 3, ST 2, leaping touchdown-machine will die, so long as:
a) There's a reasonable chance of being able to train him in the first place;
b) They get a reasonable amount of fun out of him before he gets pounded. |
This is an important point about [B]. I play wood elves, and they do fine. However, I score rather a lot of touchdowns so it takes fewer games for me to skill up my guys. That is - I have a far better chance of completing part A (training) and moving on to part B (fun with the trained player) for a while before the player gets killed. Some newbie friends that I've helped along struggle with fragile races in [B]. It takes them more games to pile up spp, so they spend more time working on training and proportionately less time on fun with trained player. Some of them lack the guts to persevere under difficult circumstances, and there are no recovery matches. Consequently, they retire the fragile team and choose orcs or dwarves for the durability. I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with any of that, but it may explain some of the extra bashy flavor of [B]. |
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Ash
Joined: Feb 03, 2004
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| Posted:
Jan 19, 2009 - 17:21 |
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Maybe part of the issue is what your calling "training" and "trained player". As we ain't [R] I don t believe you should aim for "well, 51 SPPs at last! now I can stop train him and play him!". To me, a trained player in the box is more a 16 SPPs player.
I do believe the lack of "soft" team is because some coaches are in the [R] farming spirit. IMHO, we should be able to play for fun without thinking about training as soon as TR/TS 160. |
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Mnemon
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Jan 19, 2009 - 17:52 |
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BTW: Part of what I like (and have done in [R]) about not being able to select opponents or getting soft games is that - one is constantly re-building. I actually like that aspect. I don't mind playing with less than 11 players for long stretches of time either.
Of course, I know that's the exception - but personally ... having soft games mixed in more by some articicial device would lessen what blackbox is, to me. I don't want to be ... "protected", or meet coaches that have artificial constraints put on them.
-Mnemon |
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Wuu
Joined: Jan 07, 2004
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Jan 19, 2009 - 18:17 |
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the bashing question, so long.
elvish players have to play against elvish players in order to get a long term experience.
bashing players enjoy another part of the game.
both win, sometimes.
enjoy both sides, that s a game |
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Mr_Foulscumm
Joined: Mar 05, 2005
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| Posted:
Jan 19, 2009 - 18:19 |
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| PurpleChest wrote: | Sum up:
Position A: Wahey, being bashy is natural if you take my opinions as facts and all is good here, chill out and let me hurt you.
Position B: position A is a moron, his opinions are not facts. But all is good here.
Position C: all is not good here, and pos A+B arnt helping, we need osme sort of 'prison inmate' style system, where we take it in turns to play the 'lady'. AKA 'we haz vays of makings you teh cherry'.
Position D: Sod this, Im off to [R]. |
This sounds oddly familiar... |
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