Uberskiller
Joined: Dec 14, 2004
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Feb 05, 2009 - 12:09 |
 
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I'm not in the mood for math-stuff... but I feel, that i wont make a big difference between the ratio to be drawn if there were only 2 spots or to be drawn if there are 6 spots first and you pick the final 2 out of these 6 after that.
Plus: Speaking of these 4 as lawabiding is a bit exaggerated. They didnt get the spot because they were lawabiding, but because they were lucky. Honestly I wouldne have any problem to take their slot. They signed up to get the 2 out of 194-chance. They got more than that (6 out of 194). I dont see why it would be a problem to take away what was given out too much. |
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Qaz
Joined: Apr 28, 2004
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Feb 05, 2009 - 12:21 |
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When I buy a lottery ticket I would not be happy if I first won (luckily) and then had it taken away from me again. While I had done nothing wrong for this to be taken away.
Using the term lawabiding was more to create the contrast to the 4 who did not follow the procedures.
But you might be right it was not the best word. As the 4 winners who did not apply did not do anything illegal they just chose not to use the ticket that was given to them and the train left with out them. |
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the strongest"
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Calcium
Joined: Apr 08, 2007
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Feb 05, 2009 - 12:51 |
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All coaches are equal in FUMBBL, but some are more equal than others
Having a redraw to accomodate the popular coaches that missed out would be as good as implementing the above statement, ripped off from Animal Farm.
As with the others, it is great to see the top dogs go against each other, but rules are rules. Stripping the 'lucky lottery' teams of their place once given would be awful. |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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Feb 05, 2009 - 13:14 |
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| Calcium wrote: | All coaches are equal in FUMBBL, but some are more equal than others
Having a redraw to accomodate the popular coaches that missed out would be as good as implementing the above statement, ripped off from Animal Farm.
As with the others, it is great to see the top dogs go against each other, but rules are rules. Stripping the 'lucky lottery' teams of their place once given would be awful. |
Well, that's a very blunt way to put it, though.
Mistakes happen: Purplechest, as head of Majors, should have probably known better than to just "assume" people read carefully the News Posts. If nothing else (not the case, but something to remember) because even if the site is english-based nothing prevents a non-english speaker coach to win a qualifier, and making sure he knows what he has to do is an important service for an international community.
The fact that four well known and veteran members of this site failed to comply is a strong case for a misunderstanding, as previously stated. I still blame Cloggy ( ) and the others for their mistake, and of course it would be just fine to leave them out of the big thing... but when four non-n00bs out of thirteen fail to notice an important message, chances are the important message wasn't stressed the way it had to.
Third point: the rightful exclusion of the four n00bs ( ) would take away four legitimate contenders (they won their qualifier after all) for the Warpstone Title, and ruling them out, while technically adequate, sounds somewhat cheap. We don't want lawyers to decide the Warpstone champion, we want the field to do it.
So in brief: It has nothing to do with some animals being more equal than others... both the exclusion and the inclusion of the four coaches make sense from a point of view... but stating that this problem shows how veterans are treated differently by the powers-that-be is just ridiculous, Calcium. Let's not to go wild about this... |
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Pure-Strength
Joined: Jan 20, 2009
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Feb 05, 2009 - 13:18 |
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Maybe they just didnt want to play?
Anyway, whats done is done, surely a totally re-draw is the most unfair thing, likewise sticking them in at the bottom to play each other. |
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Borgen
Joined: Sep 06, 2005
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Feb 05, 2009 - 13:20 |
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haha you have to be kidding me. what a joke |
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fly
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Feb 05, 2009 - 13:20 |
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just draw 12 more teams out of the applicants' pool and give the 4 forgetters a second chance, making WO a 32 team contest rather than 16... you could even leave the first schedule untouched and just add the other 8 pairings to top / bottom or alternate the 2 sets of pairings drawn. just a suggestion tho! |
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Borgen
Joined: Sep 06, 2005
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Feb 05, 2009 - 13:27 |
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so 7 of the 16 "finalists" are just random teams that didnt need to win a qualifier. What little credibility the majors retained is rapidly slipping. Maybe we can just have Nuffle roll some dice in chat and crown someone without having to bother with watching the rest of this silly tournament play out. |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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Feb 05, 2009 - 13:29 |
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| Borgen wrote: | | so 7 of the 16 "finalists" are just random teams that didnt need to win a qualifier. What little credibility the majors retained is rapidly slipping. Maybe we can just have Nuffle roll some dice in chat and crown someone without having to bother with watching the rest of this silly tournament play out. |
Talking about silly remarks... |
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PeteW
Joined: Aug 05, 2005
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Feb 05, 2009 - 13:34 |
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| Borgen wrote: | | so 7 of the 16 "finalists" are just random teams that didnt need to win a qualifier. What little credibility the majors retained is rapidly slipping. Maybe we can just have Nuffle roll some dice in chat and crown someone without having to bother with watching the rest of this silly tournament play out. |
[12:34] <@PeteW|away> If I get a 3 I win the WO!
[12:34] <@PeteW|away> !d 1d6
[12:34] <@Nuffle> PeteW|away: A 3 shows on the 6-sided die.
Huzzah! |
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Borgen
Joined: Sep 06, 2005
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Feb 05, 2009 - 13:41 |
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| PeteW wrote: | | Borgen wrote: | | so 7 of the 16 "finalists" are just random teams that didnt need to win a qualifier. What little credibility the majors retained is rapidly slipping. Maybe we can just have Nuffle roll some dice in chat and crown someone without having to bother with watching the rest of this silly tournament play out. |
[12:34] <@PeteW|away> If I get a 3 I win the WO!
[12:34] <@PeteW|away> !d 1d6
[12:34] <@Nuffle> PeteW|away: A 3 shows on the 6-sided die.
Huzzah! |
Thats a wrap!! Lets move on to the Ulthuan Invitational. Can we start arguing about the arbitrariness of the Light and Dark categories? Those arguments can usually be relied upon to kick the forum spammers into overdrive |
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Dominik
Joined: Oct 29, 2004
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Feb 05, 2009 - 13:43 |
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Every game should be announcend early enough in a WO IV - scheduled games thread. |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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Feb 05, 2009 - 13:47 |
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| Leijonet wrote: | | the part where you claim the missing coaches just made a minor mistake by not reading the newspost is, imo, wrong, as you've always had to apply to the main event after winning a Major qualifier. This is simply the first time that there's been any consequences for the coaches who failed to do so |
wowowo... now lets make something perfectly clear here...
I.1. any kind of spottable missed mistake is negligance.. i think we can agree that the coaches did make a mistake and acted therefor negligent... but talking about a major mistake?
2.you say, people had always to apply to the main tournament, but technically there was no procedure to enforce that... nor has there been any mentioning of a possible loss of the rightously and probably really hard earned ticket before.
3 Simply not applying to the maintournament when it was always common practice to just swap the tournament winners in, without saying a word, disqualifying the coaches for not applying to the group now, is beyond any realism.. people need to be able to rely on common practize more then on unwritten rules,
Consequence: a note of the rules change was very essential. And if we wanna determine the amount of negligece we have to deal with: the real question is, how easy was it for the coaches to spot the particular information, they failed to see...
II. now lets look at this particular incident of neglicene
1. Importance of The News Section
a)Fumbbl has very wide spread options of bringing informations to the people. These is The Forum, TheBlogs, TheFumbblChannel, TheFummblmajorschannel, TheOccialFumbblRulesPage, TheHelpsection and the News.
b)To be capable to apply to the WO you MUST either have read the Help file at some point or you MUST have read the News about the WO, but most likley, both.
c)News are commonly used by the administration for official announcements, so if people wanna check whats going on, they gotta check there. Purple did correctly put the information update there.
2. Finding the News section
The average acess to the newssection is almost impossible to spot, actually i have no clue how to get there, however there is a template in the right middle cornor of the coachpage showing the Latest news.
3.Aricles in the News Section
a)The Latest News normally provide lots of informations ranging from official annoucements about disconnect time by christer, over tournament annoucements to the archievements of teams and players you get to know there...
b) Now if you have some ruotine with these news you will probably realize at some point that the icons next to the articlce provide informations about their charakter and the need to read them... if the icon is a ball it probably means some private archievement... if the icon is a text its an official announcement whats mostly worth to be read and at least if the icon is a trophy, its a tournament update.
4. Importance of reading
a) Now you gotta know this stuff to get along with the working procedure or you gotta have to put an incredible amount of time in reading articles on the news page, that are mostly not very exiting... it however is... perfectly possible to live a fumbbl live by just agreeing to the basic rules watch out in the help file from time to time and never ever read a news article. You could even live without ever reading a forum post. Fumbbl simply makes it possible, and whats possible will happen, eventually.
b) We should not forget this is a gamespage and people will try to limit their time here as much as possible.
c) News can be very disappointing due to lack of information they provide.
5. Responsibilty of the Qualifier Champion
However, even if it maybe is not that easy for the average coach to be perfectly capable of seeing all this i think a tournament participant and especially a tournament winner should be capable of spotting the Trophy in the News Section.
6. Spotting informations in a particular text
Now lets have a look at three most recent trophy news:
They read like:| Quote: | Nine months ago, a secret meeting took place at the Smoking Mountain, home of the gnome's Sharen clan, and soon an organization was born. Who are they ? No one knows..But they wanted the Stunty Leeg to survive from tall people !
Now, after the construction of the new RGT Stadium (fund provided by Rotten Goblins' Thigh inc.) inside the Smoking Mountain, we are glad to introduce the Stunty Revival Tour to the Stunty Leeg !
May the blood flows all over the field again !
The Stunty Revival Tour will run five Bowls on different themes, every two months, all over the country. To end the year, all 5 winners and 3 teams selected by a lottery ticket system will be invited to the SRT Championship.
Each tournament winner will win a wonderful trophy !
Celebrating in the Smoking Mountain until the first tournament start, the Celebrating Time Bowl
Applications started now, tournament starting February 15th 2509. Welcome to all !
Celebratings Time Bowl
Stunty Revival Tour |
7. Important abstracted message
a)if you have read this entire message you will find out that the only information you gotta necessarily know, is that the application time has started and that is going to kick off in the middle of febuary.... now every person with a not entirely broken healthy life will scroll to bottom and just try to extract the important informations if he wanna participate.
b)And here is the thing.... Tournament Updates normally can be summed up in two parts:
The Qualfiers application has started!
The Final Round has kicked off!
c)It very rarly provides real rulechanges. In this particular case we are confronted with an Article that is not just about WO but big part about the fumbbl tour... its pretty long actually:
| Quote: | The Fumbbl Tour is open for applications. The first Tour event of the year will be for teams TR200 or less. There is a one week window for applications, more details are below.
The Warpstone Open Qualifiers are drawing to a close and with only a week to go before the main draw its time for a reminder as to the Warpstone Lottery and its procedures.
The Fumbbl Tour will be drawn next Wednesday night. There will be as many Draws as can be filled with 32 teams. The maximum entry TR for this event is 200. You are reminded that Tour events no longer attract dynamic Gold.
All teams that applied before the opening of the application window have been kicked from the group. So if you applied early, you will have to apply again. this will be standard procedure from here on in all Majors, Minors and Tour events.
As the Warpstone Open Qualifiers draw to a finish it is time to remind you of the Warpstone Lottery. All teams that competed in the Warpstone Open qualifiers are eligable. To be in with a chance you have to have re-submitted your team, this time to the Main Warpstone Open Page
The procedure for starting the main draw will be as follows:
I will accept the 13 winners of the qualifiers into the Warpstone Open IV. If any qualifier winners dont apply to the main tournament, their places will go to the general Lottery. After this in #Fumbblmajors, I will roll a D13. This will determine which losing qualifier finalist will be entered in the main draw. If they havnt applied the process will be repeated until a losing finalist is found, who will then be accepted into the main draw. Finally all remaining places, expected to be 2 (but possibly more), will be allocated by random roll in the #Fumbblmajors chanel. After the roll, the team will be checked to ensure that it has competed in the qualifiers. So no point applying if you didn't.
In general the response to the Warpstone Open Qualifiers has been very positive, with almost everyone taking it seriously and trying hard to complete their games in due time. Sadly several people didnt and bans were handed out to some. Please remember that most of these bans could have been avoided had the coaches involved communicated their issues in playing to the schedule with the admin in charge. Details of the deadline and Admin responsible are always available on the draw page just below the draw title.
The Fumbbl Tournament Rules are widely linked to and available for you to read anytime. They have recently had some minor additions to make even clearer their intent. I am consistently amazed by the number of people that claim ignorance of these. Ignorance is no defense. By applying to an Official Tournament, you are stating that you will comply with these rules. So for those of you that havn't yet, reading them might be a good idea. I'm not kidding about the pre-tourney pimping either. I AM watching.
However my thanks to all coaches that have made this a great start to the year, with some classic match-ups and a great deal of spectator pleasing action |
d) now if you just read the first line you will suddenly realize as a WO participant that this info completly doesn't interest you, but if you read on you will soon realise this article includes a average final WO round is about to kick off.
Now if you are smart and paying unusual attention, you will notice that short line in the middle of the text stating, lottery applicants have to apply to the WO main event or cannot take part.
e)This info you find after the i think third break will cause an aha! effect... the coach will now think to have spotted the important secret message in the text.
f) Just if he really reads every line from the top to the bottom he will notice the following line after the fourth break in the second sentence: | Quote: | If any qualifier winners dont apply to the main tournament, their places will go to the general Lottery.
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8.Timeframe
Technically just everyone has to apply to the main event this time tough. So this is the first time every single coach had to do that... I wonder how many teams did, tough. The information was released just a few days ago it was even possible to have ended the WO qualfier allready and paying attention to other stuff and just to wait for kickoff of the final round and then being confronted with being kicked out.
9.Purples Obligation
Lets put one thing here very clear. Purple has no obligation to mark the text and send every participating coach a fruit basket, with a note they have to apply. He did what he had to do and its allright. It even is an error of the coaches who didnt apply, but they are still the ones who are victims here, because they gotta pay a very very high price for ignoring a simple small formality.
III. Result:
Coaches cannot be expected to read every single line of a text they are confronted with.
The Warpstone Open Finale is technically destroyed like it is now. Seven of the Sixteen teams that are in it, aren't capable of putting up a fight and neither bring up the coach skills to do so, including myself.
It technically has become a powerhouse smack with a few additional random applicants.
On the other hand the draws are made and it would be not in any way rightouss to take away the spots the people got... it would be plain wrong.
Proposal::
As Winner of the one Finalist Round Applicant Ticket, I offer to withdraw from the tournament and replace me by a random lottery ticket between the remaining real champions of the WO
i also request every other lottery winner who has unrightous become part of the tournament to make the same proposal to withdraw his team for a real champ...
purple has no particular obligation to follow this proposal but i just wanted to make clear that it is up for debate.
and if i can just make one real winner join the final round it would make me feel much better then winning it in a stupid lottery... |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 05, 2009 - 13:57 |
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Wall of text hits you - CRITICAL HIT! - 412836dmg - you die.
Still not too bad of a post content-wise |
Last edited by CircularLogic on %b %05, %2009 - %14:%Feb; edited 1 time in total |
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Gritter
Joined: Jun 29, 2006
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Feb 05, 2009 - 14:01 |
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As i see there are a couple of options.
We go with the decisions that has been made, which is technically correct by the way in hopes that it will make people remember to follow tournament rules next time around. Meanwhile we live with having a somewhat cheapened WO this year.
We do not redraw, but take the 4 last people drawn from the lucky loosers (i presime the last 4 can be found from irc logs?) out of the tournament and replace their spots with the winning qualifiers randomly (on a D4) thereby having all participants.
We go with the decision made by PC but give those lucky loosing coaches the chance to 'give up' their seat if they so choose to one of the boneheaded qualifiers.(again randomly drawn)
I know i would give up my seat in their shoes, and there are a couple of mangled teams in the draw with no chance who might want to do the same...
Whaetever happens PC just did what he said he would do, but we need to avoid a repeat performance of this in othe rmajors as ending up with nearly half the draw in their randomly is a bit silly.
/me gangfouls the 4 silly coaches |
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