FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

Jakob_olsen

Joined: Nov 20, 2005

Posted: Feb 24, 2009 - 23:54

Perhaps a cherry-picker award.... ???

pizzamogul

Joined: Jun 13, 2005

Posted: Feb 25, 2009 - 17:42

What about throwing out the current scoring system and coming up with something new? Maybe the problem lies in the rewards offered for scoring and casualties... is a 2-1 win really worse than a 3-1 win?

What if we base points on results, like 10 points for a win, 5 for a tie, and 1 for a loss. Then offer a bonus point or points for playing as the weaker team or playing a higher-rated coach?

Base points more on the match up going in (and encourage certain behavior/choices) rather than the result coming out. In this way ELF coaches might be encouraged to think, "I'll challenge Synn's Goats cause if I pull off a win I'll earn x-points" instead of "I'll challenge this brand-new guy's vampires cause I could possibly win 5-0 and earn a pile of points."

How could a system like this be put into practice... AND make it fun/challenging to try to win the league?

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Tathar

Joined: Sep 29, 2006

Posted: Feb 25, 2009 - 18:40

pizzamogul wrote:

What about throwing out the current scoring system and coming up with something new? Maybe the problem lies in the rewards offered for scoring and casualties... is a 2-1 win really worse than a 3-1 win?

What if we base points on results, like 10 points for a win, 5 for a tie, and 1 for a loss. Then offer a bonus point or points for playing as the weaker team or playing a higher-rated coach?

Base points more on the match up going in (and encourage certain behavior/choices) rather than the result coming out. In this way ELF coaches might be encouraged to think, "I'll challenge Synn's Goats cause if I pull off a win I'll earn x-points" instead of "I'll challenge this brand-new guy's vampires cause I could possibly win 5-0 and earn a pile of points."

How could a system like this be put into practice... AND make it fun/challenging to try to win the league?

How about something like:

10 points for a win, 5 for a tie, and 1 for a loss

Bonus points:
TS disadvantage / 4
CR - (Base CR [i.e.150?]) / 6

Figures can be changed to fit weightings you want. Divisors can be changed to nth roots if that is a more appropriate scale.

Edit: You get 1/4 bonus points if you lose, 1/2 bonus points is you draw and full bonus points if you win.

Edit2: Here is a table of example scores.

Edit3: Code not working, I'll have to figure something else out.

Last edited by Tathar on %b %25, %2009 - %22:%Feb; edited 20 times in total

Mr_Foulscumm

Joined: Mar 05, 2005

Posted: Feb 25, 2009 - 18:41

pizzamogul wrote:

Base points more on the match up going in (and encourage certain behavior/choices) rather than the result coming out. In this way ELF coaches might be encouraged to think, "I'll challenge Synn's Goats cause if I pull off a win I'll earn x-points" instead of "I'll challenge this brand-new guy's vampires cause I could possibly win 5-0 and earn a pile of points."

I like this idea.

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Jakob_olsen

Joined: Nov 20, 2005

Posted: Feb 25, 2009 - 19:03

I like it. It would make us aim for winning 10 hard matches instead of winning 10 easy ones.

Jakob_olsen

Joined: Nov 20, 2005

Posted: Feb 25, 2009 - 19:13

We could actually just inherit the system from the fumbbl championship, where a difficulty is calculated from the CR and TS, and then multiplied on the points from the match.

The championship calculates the difficulty as:
Difficulty = 0.6 * (Total Opponent Strength / Total Your Strength) + 0.4 * (Total Opponent CR / Total Your CR).

Tathar

Joined: Sep 29, 2006

Posted: Feb 25, 2009 - 22:14

Tathar wrote:

pizzamogul wrote:

What about throwing out the current scoring system and coming up with something new? Maybe the problem lies in the rewards offered for scoring and casualties... is a 2-1 win really worse than a 3-1 win?

What if we base points on results, like 10 points for a win, 5 for a tie, and 1 for a loss. Then offer a bonus point or points for playing as the weaker team or playing a higher-rated coach?

Base points more on the match up going in (and encourage certain behavior/choices) rather than the result coming out. In this way ELF coaches might be encouraged to think, "I'll challenge Synn's Goats cause if I pull off a win I'll earn x-points" instead of "I'll challenge this brand-new guy's vampires cause I could possibly win 5-0 and earn a pile of points."

How could a system like this be put into practice... AND make it fun/challenging to try to win the league?

How about something like:

10 points for a win, 5 for a tie, and 1 for a loss

Bonus points:
TS disadvantage / 4
CR - (Base CR [i.e.150?]) / 6

Figures can be changed to fit weightings you want. Divisors can be changed to nth roots if that is a more appropriate scale.

Edit: You get 1/4 bonus points if you lose, 1/2 bonus points is you draw and full bonus points if you win.

Edit2: Here is a table of example scores.

Edit3: Code not working, I'll have to figure something else out.

This code box kinda works. Hope it's clear enough.

CR = Opponent CR
TS = TS Disadvantage

Edit: Opps got the figures wrong forgot to $ some cells in excel. Figures now shown below have been revised.

Code:

CR TS W D L
150 5 11.25 5.63 1.31
150 10 12.50 6.25 1.63
150 20 15.00 7.50 2.25
150 40 20.00 10.00 3.50
160 5 12.92 6.46 1.73
160 10 14.17 7.08 2.04
160 20 16.67 8.33 2.67
160 40 21.67 10.83 3.92
170 5 14.58 7.29 2.15
170 10 15.83 7.92 2.46
170 20 18.33 9.17 3.08
170 40 23.33 11.67 4.33
180 5 16.25 8.13 2.56
180 10 17.50 8.75 2.88
180 20 20.00 10.00 3.50
180 40 25.00 12.50 4.75

Tathar

Joined: Sep 29, 2006

Posted: Feb 25, 2009 - 22:54

The formula is pretty simple to stick into an excel spreadsheet and muck around with the mechanics of the scoring system. The initial parameters I proposed above didn't seem to provide nice enough incentives for harder matches so I've tinkered with it to produce the figures below, which I feel are a little closer to what's needed.

Formulas in excel were like:

=ROUND("W points"+((("TS")+(("CR"-150)/2))*1.00),2)
=ROUND("D points"+((("TS")+(("CR"-150)/2))*0.80),2)
=ROUND("L points"+((("TS")+(("CR"-150)/2))*0.50),2)

My reasoning for the factors were that:
- TS is more significant than CR.
- Greater bonuses should be awarded for winning rathar than drawing and drawing rather than losing.

Code:

CR TS W D L
150 5 15.00 9.00 3.50
150 10 20.00 9.00 6.00
150 20 30.00 13.00 11.00
150 40 50.00 21.00 21.00
160 5 20.00 11.00 6.00
160 10 25.00 13.00 8.50
160 20 35.00 17.00 13.50
160 40 55.00 25.00 23.50
170 5 25.00 15.00 8.50
170 10 30.00 17.00 11.00
170 20 40.00 21.00 16.00
170 40 60.00 29.00 26.00
180 5 30.00 19.00 11.00
180 10 35.00 21.00 13.50
180 20 45.00 25.00 18.50
180 40 65.00 33.00 28.50

This kind of system seems simple enough and aligned with pizzamogul's idea. The parameters, "base" TS/CR levels, etc can all be customised so that the system properly incentivises E.L.F. match ups and allows some flexibility.

Jakob_olsen

Joined: Nov 20, 2005

Posted: Feb 26, 2009 - 00:22

I like the first table the best... It seems balanced and fair.

... but i completely fail to see the point of awarding bonus for loosing ?? In the proposed system, loosing big-time to a much better team with a much better coach is awarded 28.5 points.... Why ??? Anyone can do that!

koadah

Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Posted: Feb 26, 2009 - 00:36

Jakob_olsen wrote:

I like the first table the best... It seems balanced and fair.

... but i completely fail to see the point of awarding bonus for loosing ?? In the proposed system, loosing big-time to a much better team with a much better coach is awarded 28.5 points.... Why ??? Anyone can do that!

I like it. Kamikaze spirit. Wink

Encourage people play and complete the cycle. Not only to play when they think they can win.

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babelfilm

Joined: Dec 15, 2005

Posted: Feb 27, 2009 - 12:53

Interesting concept.

A competition of who can challenge the team that out class yours the most....

Not sure if that is for me. But we will see...

Kinks

Joined: Feb 28, 2007

Posted: Feb 27, 2009 - 13:51

babelfilm wrote:

Interesting concept.

A competition of who can challenge the team that out class yours the most....

Not sure if that is for me. But we will see...

I'm happy with points been awarded for "attendence", but I don't feel anymore points should be awarded for playing and losing to a stronger team / opponent than a weak team / opponent.

I think a modifier would be better than straight points. So something like:

CR 150 < 155 & -4/+4 TS = x1
CR 155 < 160 & -4/+4 TS = x1.5
CR 155 < 160 & +5/+9 TS = x2

Obviously the modifier would be applied to all points gained (win bonus, TDs, Cas, etc)

You get the idea (not going to draw our an entire example table)

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clarkin

Joined: Oct 15, 2007

Posted: Feb 27, 2009 - 14:39

Pizzamogul if you need someone to modify the java team scraper to implement these changes (once decided), let me know. I think i'm the last person to have done that for you.

MadTias

Joined: Jun 19, 2004

Posted: Feb 27, 2009 - 17:08

One thing that hasn't been brought up yet is that every time we change the scoring system, we destroy the possibility to compare scores with previous seasons. As a statistics fan, I think that's sad (no "all-time-high" lists). Sad

No system will ever be perfect. The current baseline system does what is needed (disincentive to picking) adequately. I say keep it, move on and let's play!

Mr_Foulscumm

Joined: Mar 05, 2005

Posted: Feb 27, 2009 - 18:00

I would rather just go with what MadTias just said to be honest. Very Happy

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