| Poll |
| Are you looking forward to ELFing on FFB? |
| Yes! |
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87% |
[ 71 ] |
| Depends on how things change. |
|
7% |
[ 6 ] |
| No, never! LRB4 or death! |
|
4% |
[ 4 ] |
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| Total Votes : 81 |
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the_pied_piper
Joined: Apr 23, 2009
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 Posted:
Feb 15, 2011 - 19:09 |
 
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| Astarael wrote: |
Now, on the TV based system for a baseline. I'm all for it. Anything that encourages playing harder games over playing down has to be a good thing. Perhaps to stop it being taken to extremes you could take the average between the two teams TV's and divide that number instead of solely using the opponents TV. This will keep it more balanced for [B] users as well. |
I agree with this idea as it should balance out any teams that might try to gain advantages by playing up/down TV and of course with [B] not really having this problem the TV of a [B] game should be fairly close to the team's TV anyway.
| Pizzamogul wrote: | | Push Chaos and Pact down into B with Nurgle - 3 teams that start out mild then ripen like cheese sitting in the back of a fridge. |
Would it be a feasible idea then to maybe offer x1.5 points for these teams to make up for the damage they could do at higher TV? |
_________________
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD BOWL! |
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MadTias
Joined: Jun 19, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 15, 2011 - 22:59 |
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| pizzamogul wrote: | | I'd rather see (and offer equal if not a few more points to) the old standbys battling to 2-1 wins vs. killer chaos at 2,000 TV than having a bunch of brand-new teams racking up 5-0 wins over rookie chaos that present no real threat (or challenge). By design, I prefer the league to slightly favor experience instead of encouraging serial team creation. |
Great to see you back in action pizza, looking forward to the new season!
+1 for somehow rewarding higher TV teams, to encourage the same teams to compete from season to season.
Also +1 for somehow rewarding Blackbox teams and/or making it easier for Blackbox teams to complete the cycle, to make it feasible for them to win the championship. The box inherently creates the environment that ELF wants to create by design, so there should be an incentive to playing ELF in the box.
I would be for removing the categories for box teams, but the categories are probably needed for ranked and I guess we want to keep the same scoring rules for everyone.
I'll post again later about my thoughts on scoring. |
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Arktoris
Joined: Feb 16, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 15, 2011 - 23:13 |
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I think MadTias maybe on to something.
for Box teams, maybe completing the cycle would be one game in each category, plus 5 others since it's random. Or allow them to complete a category by playing the same race twice (ie two chaos pact games completes cat A) |
_________________
Hail to Manowar! The latest charioteer to DIE for bloodbowl! - Slain, by Ghor Oggaz |
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MadTias
Joined: Jun 19, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 15, 2011 - 23:20 |
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| pizzamogul wrote: | What about having E be the "Elf" category along some of the other oddities? Something like (# of active Box teams):
A: Chaos (113), Dwarf (131), Pact (89)
B: Nurgle (92), CD (112), Orcs (145)
C: Lizzies (66), Khemri (59), Human (69), Norse (87), Slann (47)
D: Zons (43), Necro (96), Undead (87), Underworld (27), Skaven (67), Goblin (18)
E: Ogre (32), Vamps(33), 'flings (19), Wood (57), Dark (98), Pro (38), High Elves(52)
|
I appreciate how this creates good numbers of Box teams in each category, but some races are in weird places. Slann in particular leaps out.
Slann has the lowest BBR of all races except the stunties, so sticking them in Cat C feels off. I suggest moving them down to Cat D. Necro and Undead OTOH are more dangerous than the other races in Cat D, so one of them should move (back) up to Cat C. Would that be possible without messing up the distribution? |
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MadTias
Joined: Jun 19, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 15, 2011 - 23:32 |
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Need to go to sleep now, just two quick thoughts on scoring:
Bonus points for opponent TV capped at ELF team's TV sounds OK. We don't want ELF to create incentives to go for wiz+hypnogaze guy inducement matches. If it's possible to program, the bonus points could alternatively be based on opponent TV directly, required the ELF team does not take any inducements.
I certainly hope the bonus for 5 TD stays in, as it gives my ELF matches a completely different feeling from "normal" games - I always go for 5.  |
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pizzamogul
Joined: Jun 13, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 16, 2011 - 18:09 |
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I believe we should be able to structure the Categories in a way that benefits both the open and closed environments. I'd rather not have two sets of rules. All or none is the way to go.
Slann were up there just by virtue of their Strength access, but I've already sort of upset the apple cart a bit by reworking A & B. I wish I could see the BBR of Slann vs. the elven races... I'm guessing they fare much better than vs. the entire field.
So with my new A & B and Slann taken down a notch as suggested (replaced by Undead), my latest go at the Categories looks like:
A: Orcs (145), Dwarf (131), CD (112)
B: Chaos (113), Nurgle (92), Pact (89)
C: Norse (87), Undead (87), Human (69), Lizzies (66), Khemri (59)
D: Necro (96), Skaven (67), Slann (47), Zons (43), Underworld (27), Goblin (18)
E: Dark (98), High Elves(52), Wood (57), Pro (38), Vamps(33), Ogre (32), 'flings (19)
Which gives us a Box breakdown of:
A: 388
B: 294
C: 368
D: 298
E: 329
Does that leave enough races in D that a Box team has a chance of catching two at higher TVs? I'm not totally sold that Slann aren't worthy of C - I think they will offer elves some unique challenges... heck, they might even out-elf them some matches. Maybe a better idea would be to have Slann, Skaven and the Elves all in one category and split up the remaining races between the last two? That would allow a "no elves" ELF team to complete the cycle for a change.
Keep the ideas coming on some tweaks for C, D and E.
Other stuff:
I still want to offer x2 points for Category A match ups. I'm also seriously thinking about offering x2 points for the baseline points only in Category B to encourage playing those races after they've shed their baby teeth and to diminish the value of blowing out a bunch of unmutated mutants.
For Baseline based on TV I'm thinking:
1,000 TV or less - 10 points
for every additional 1-200 of TV - 1 point
so,
0 - 1,000 - 10
1,001-1200 - 11
1201-1400 -12
1401-1600-13
and so on...
This is the TV of your opponent or your ELF team, whichever is less. Does that sound reasonable? Perfect, unbalancing, or somewhere in between?
All other scoring and bonuses to remain the same as last season.
Result:
Win= +10 pts
Draw= +5 pts
Scoring:
Per td scored= +1 pts
Per td allowed= -1 pts
Casualties:
Per cas caused= +1 pts
No negative modifier for casualties against - you've already suffered enough!
Bonuses:
Score 5 or more touchdowns= +2 pts
Shutout victory (opponent does not score)= +2 pts
Force opponent concession= +3 pts |
_________________
"Don't expect mercy."
-Woodstock |
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Mr_Foulscumm
Joined: Mar 05, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 16, 2011 - 18:25 |
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| pizzamogul wrote: | | Maybe a better idea would be to have Slann, Skaven and the Elves all in one category and split up the remaining races between the last two? |
Agreed.
As for a lot of suggestions so far have seen to be about change for the sake of change. |
_________________
Everybody's favorite coach on FUMBBL |
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pizzamogul
Joined: Jun 13, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 16, 2011 - 18:26 |
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How about:
C: Undead, Necro, Khemri, Vamps
D: Elves, Skaven, Slann
E: Humans, Norse, Zons, Lizzies, Ogres, Underworld, Goblins, 'flings.
I crunch the numbers later... I really need to finish my accounting.
A: Brutal
B: Fine Mutating Wines
C: The Living Dead
D: Hold Still, Stop Moving!
E: Mayflower Compact? David vs. Goliath? |
_________________
"Don't expect mercy."
-Woodstock |
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Mr_Foulscumm
Joined: Mar 05, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 16, 2011 - 18:35 |
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This might be a super dumb question.
But do we really need to cater to the [B] teams at all? They are already playing the ideal E.L.F way anyhow. |
_________________
Everybody's favorite coach on FUMBBL |
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pizzamogul
Joined: Jun 13, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 16, 2011 - 18:54 |
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But the league was structured in such a way that teams "playing the ideal E.L.F. way" were operating with a handicap in that the format made it difficult to complete the cycle and very hard to improve upon those "fringe" scores.
We need to move several races around (due to roster changes) and find homes for the new ones anyways. This is the ideal time to give some consideration to those who want to compete in the E.L.F. while playing in the Box!
I believe that making the league more accessible to both major divisions will be good for membership and the competition. Win, win! I'm excited by this opportunity and personally can't wait to make an E.L.F. team in Black Box of my own. |
_________________
"Don't expect mercy."
-Woodstock |
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Arktoris
Joined: Feb 16, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 16, 2011 - 19:21 |
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| Mr_Foulscumm wrote: | This might be a super dumb question.
But do we really need to cater to the [B] teams at all? They are already playing the ideal E.L.F way anyhow. |
at first I thought the same thing. but when you look at the games played ont he stats page, about 80% of games played are occuring in div[B]. so catering to B teams seems the logical thing to do in order to keep E.L.F. relevant.
I say go with pizza's category lineup (based on # of teams, even out each category) for this season. whatever doesn't work, change for the next season.
it takes a few seasons to iron things out...just like when ELF was first invented. |
_________________
Hail to Manowar! The latest charioteer to DIE for bloodbowl! - Slain, by Ghor Oggaz |
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zakatan
Joined: May 17, 2008
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| Posted:
Feb 16, 2011 - 19:24 |
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also it encourages more Elves in the box, in a way |
_________________
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Astarael
Joined: Aug 14, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 16, 2011 - 20:01 |
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| zakatan wrote: | | also it encourages more Elves in the box, in a way |
And more elves in the Box means more elves in boxes with nice little tombstones!
Win for everyone  |
_________________
Oh my. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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| Posted:
Feb 16, 2011 - 20:09 |
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Any rough idea when this is starting? |
_________________
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MadTias
Joined: Jun 19, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 16, 2011 - 20:15 |
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| Mr_Foulscumm wrote: | This might be a super dumb question.
But do we really need to cater to the [B] teams at all? They are already playing the ideal E.L.F way anyhow. |
Yes we do. A Box team should be able to win the ELF championship. I'd much prefer to ELF in the box, but so far not being able to compete for the trophy has discouraged me. |
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