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Sigmar1



Joined: Aug 13, 2008

Post   Posted: Feb 29, 2012 - 16:49 Reply with quote Back to top

Heh, I thought the same thing regarding the name Nelphine, but didn't want to be critical over such a minor issue.

As far as the baseline Mephits [ Smile ], are you referring to the ones with G access or without?

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Balle2000



Joined: Sep 25, 2008

Post   Posted: Feb 29, 2012 - 17:01 Reply with quote Back to top

I think the wizard player type is a fun idea

(btw, team can be called Toadlings?)
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Feb 29, 2012 - 17:38 Reply with quote Back to top

Oh sorry; I was referring to Sigmar's list, where the Mephit's do NOT have G access. I figure given that you have a S6 guy, and 4 stab/bombardiers, you don't need G access.
Aflo



Joined: Jun 16, 2009

Post   Posted: Feb 29, 2012 - 17:38 Reply with quote Back to top

Ha! I've played D&D computer games (baldur's gate, IWD etc.) for the past 10 years and I've read mephit wrong every time...bizarre. Yeh, fixed Smile

It might be that I'm alone on this but the general access on this wizards just seems to *fit*. Normal agility access feels very wrong on them. Sure there might be some agile wizards floating around, but these are crotchety old sons-a-guns with crooked backs and halitosis as opposed to dark elf sorceresses for example. Those 4 should be formidable too, as the team's backbone and leadership who've rhomped down to the pitch to have a jolly good larf at squishing some stunties. I would much prefer to see them increase in price and keep general or decrease in price and just have passing access (there's no particular reason why they 'should' have anything in addition to just making their fireballs more accurate).

So potential fix for the G access situation: keep it on the wizards maybe with a price hike, take it from the mephits and maybe replace it with mutation access? That way the wizards keep what makes them cool, their flexibility and uniqueness within the setting, the mephits can keep a ball handling postion with 2 heads/big hand/extra arms (perfectly fluffy given the nature of deamons) and the team isn't swamped with blockers. Thoughts?

Oh, small thing with regards to the team name: I'm not 100% happy with Colleges of Magic, just seems a bit clunky. That said 'Wizard Guild' doesn't fully sit right with the setting, simply because in the GW fantasy universe the condoned Empire wizards are split into colleges and guilds are never mentioned. Perhaps 'Collegiate Wizard'? Or just simple 'Wizard'?


Two extra points I've thought about:

1. Whether there's a way to have animosity between the wizards? I don't know how code friendly it is but these guys are all secretly plotting each others demise so should be a little reticent at handing the winning touchdown to a rival. The animosity would only be between the 4 wizards though, not the masters and their stooges.

2. Very long legs on the wizards? Purely to make the leap skill used...currently it's a 4+ with ag3 (likewise with hypnotic gaze) so 75% probability of success but on a team with such expensive rerolls and relative lack of dodge I'm worried they'll be these cool all rounders on paper and end up relegated to expensive stabbing machines in actuality.


@Balle2000: Thanks, I hoped they would be. I think Toadlings might grate on Shadow a bit too much, just thinking realistically and especially given there's a specific point making it explicitly clear -ling teams were not allowed Smile
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Feb 29, 2012 - 17:46 Reply with quote Back to top

Aflo: Reasoning fluffwise that goes through my head for Wizard skill access:

Wizards are crotchety old man who have blasted their way to the top with magic, not their hands. They haven't ever had the opportunity to get into a fist fight with someone - so how would they learn block/tackle? (All the rest of the G skills actually do make sense to me, but those 2 just don't.)
On the other side - they're crotchety old men who have schemed and conspired with the best of them; they've also had to deal with wild magic their whole life. Getting out of the way of things, and hitting people when they are down, scream wizard to me (diving tackle - they learned it as 'get out of the fireball!' and modified it to 'and take that guy with me!'; sidestep 'get out of the lightning bolt!'; sneaky git 'rip hair out of competing wizard apprentices head while head mage isn't looking'; etc etc).
If you could somehow say 'G access, but no block/tackle' I would be even happier. But given the skill lists, A is what jumps out at me.

For the mephits, I wouldn't mind if they were A/M; but I don't think anyone on the team needs G access, both from fluff point of view, and from balance since the wizards bring so many other things to the table.

Also, drop the re-rolls to 70k. That's the usual price for teams that don't work together.

I do like Very long legs on the wizard. I have no problem with it.
On1



Joined: Jul 12, 2004

Post   Posted: Feb 29, 2012 - 17:59 Reply with quote Back to top

Aflo.

Remove G access from wizards. make it so that they can pick passing skills on normal and mutations and agility on double!
Aflo



Joined: Jun 16, 2009

Post   Posted: Feb 29, 2012 - 18:09 Reply with quote Back to top

Interesting Nelphine, when you put it like that it makes alot more sense. Sneaky over agile. I think my initial reasoning for general was that they simply got better at fast paced practical magic as they spent some time actually playing the game which allows you to have make as much sense as your imagination allows eg. tackle is a small web spell that prevents slippier opponents from escaping, fend is a mini forcefield that fires as a contingency once the wizard is hit etc.

However I think I'm happy either way. I would prefer wizards to be something of an (albeit fragile) powerhouse among the rest of the stunties that come up to their knees but maybe they will be without block/tackle access so agility or general - no worries. The advantage of agility access is it's much easier to rationalise now you have put how you've done and conjurs a funny image in my mind that these guys really were never that great wizards anyhow Smile

The more I think about mephits having M access the more I like it, so if no one else disagrees with me there I think I'll change the front page roster.

Likewise VLL is looking more and more tempting, will change on the front page and see.

Animosity between wizards I think is cool and a nice addition so I'm probably going to go for it even if it means having animosity between wizards and hench-deamons too but I'm holding back because I don't know if it would gimp them too much. On the other hand they probably don't care much for the ball anyway and so it makes sense for them to either not see the significance of losing it to the opposition or indeed picking the damn thing up in the first place - thoughts?
Aflo



Joined: Jun 16, 2009

Post   Posted: Feb 29, 2012 - 18:10 Reply with quote Back to top

@On1: Aye I think I'm going to have to Smile

Although, why swap general for mutations on doubles? Because they might simulate spells better?
Sigmar1



Joined: Aug 13, 2008

Post   Posted: Feb 29, 2012 - 18:11 Reply with quote Back to top

I actually DONT like VLL on the wizards. Sure, everyone who wants a leaping player wants that player to leap reliably so as not to 'waste' the skill. But what people want and what makes sense are two very different things.

Although Wizards 'can' leap/ levitate, that doesn't mean they're especially good at it. And a 4+ is plenty good if you're in a pinch. Plus, just think how much they'll crave +AG! The wizards get REALLY good with +AG (another argument for the A access IMO).

I agree with Nelphine, most of the General skills just don't seem to fit a wizard. Why would they be bothered with learing how to wrestle, or strip ball, or shadow? They're book learners that develop some agility for the reason Nelphine described. Of course, they can still get any of those things on a dbl roll. They are risking life and limb on the pitch.

As for Mephits...I kinda pictured them more like Imps (from the Devil lineage) than Daemons. You know, horns, wings, pointy devil tails. Not really into the 'Mutation' side of things (although I do realize that the 'Devil' aspect is not used in Warhammer). Regen could work though. And G access could too but only if the powers-that-be saw this team as too weak. But once bombs get implemented I really don't think so. Those four wizards with no 'secret weapons' are gonna be a terror.

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WhatBall



Joined: Aug 21, 2008

Post   Posted: Feb 29, 2012 - 19:52
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Quick question, is the first post the most recent iteration of the roster? I'd like to look at it and comment without reading any of the other posts to avoid biasing my feedback.

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Aflo



Joined: Jun 16, 2009

Post   Posted: Feb 29, 2012 - 19:54 Reply with quote Back to top

Hi WhatBall, I'll make a couple of ammendments to the first post to show people new to the discussion where the rest of us are at currently.
Aflo



Joined: Jun 16, 2009

Post   Posted: Feb 29, 2012 - 20:06 Reply with quote Back to top

I have now switched wizard skill access from GP/AS to AP/GS by public demand Wink


@Sigmar1: I see what you mean but it's not a huge difference in power and prevents them from becoming boring turrets. It just seems a waste giving them all this quirky magicky goodness only for them to stick to the (relatively) tried and tested stab and bombs. As always however if comes to be that this is overpowered I'm happy to compromise.

With regards to general justification you might find it interesting to read the first couple of paragraphs in my last post.

Indeedy, I see them as imp-esque creatures but really they're independant deamons made of the same stuff as horrors, nurglings and bloodthirsters the difference being they're not affiliated to a larger deamonic entity. As such mutating is exactly what they could do and I feel stupid not to have thought of it initially. I really like how it adds to the teams quirkyness, adds variety and gets rid of the cheap 1 skill blodger conundrum.

EDIT: also, front post has now been updated to include the most recent roster changes/suggestions.
Sigmar1



Joined: Aug 13, 2008

Post   Posted: Feb 29, 2012 - 20:18 Reply with quote Back to top

Aflo, looking at the latest revisions:

I like what you've done. The Animosity on the Wizards in particular adds a lot to the teams flavor. I would suggest dropping them to MV5 to represent their lack of overall conditioning and to offset the addition of VLL.

Homunculi...I think if you're going to switch from the toads to the Homunculi concept you should add in the av6, thickskull and regen as it really fits the fluff for an artificial construct. They're still nearly as useless, but they're far tougher. As far as icons for these guys (ahem whatball!), I'm picturing vastly different body shapes but homogenous coloring, ie. all dark brown or med. grey but with lots of different completely different body types.

I see your point on the Mephits, and 80K seems reasonable for the sprint, regen, M access. An impish looking icon would still look great though.

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Aflo



Joined: Jun 16, 2009

Post   Posted: Feb 29, 2012 - 21:29 Reply with quote Back to top

Mv5 wizards works for me if it balances them out. Thick skull and/or regen I think is a good idea but I feel they should stay at Av5...I want these guys to be truly awful, snotling style. But yeh you're probably right that they need a little something to keep 'em alive/on the pitch but Av6/TS and regen together is too much and would change the feel of these useless sewn together critters too much. Could have alot of fun with those icons, floating eyeballs, 2 giant hands sewn together like a giant spider, dragonfly/dog hybrids...I could go on (oh and there's gotta be some toads in there Wink).

Yeh mephits look impish in my mind too. All the older source material on independant deamons (flicking through my 80s Realm of Chaos books now) is fairly vague and essentially come to the conclusion that 'they can be anything!' but hovering, basically humanoid, horny, pointy tail spring to my mind immediately.

Now the rules for big guys have changed since LRB4 we'll have to come to a decision between the golem and the elemental. I'm fine with either (and the other can be a star player) but I'm curious what others think is better for the team/cooler.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Feb 29, 2012 - 21:51 Reply with quote Back to top

I would probably go with the golem; given how unreliable skills like stab and bombardier can be, this team is overall fairly weak. So a strength 6 big guy makes more sense to me. On top of that, movement doesn't seem to be a weakspot of the team so I don't think losing the slightly more reliable/mobile elemental is a problem either.


Last edited by Nelphine on Feb 29, 2012 - 22:10; edited 1 time in total
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