Overhamsteren
Joined: May 27, 2006
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 Posted:
Jul 11, 2013 - 01:22 |
 
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| King_Ghidra wrote: | | PainState wrote: | | There is a common thread with all them...Those are the standard AG3/2 races. Also known as the tweener races. Not really good at bash or ball. Notice how all the heavy bash is off the list and the Ag4 elf teams are all missing? |
Absolutely a valid point. It does seem that in its most ultra-competitive and unrestricted form, BB favours teams that are very good at one thing rather than ok at a couple. |
And linemen with G plus A or S access. 
Only pact on that list has that, guess not having any positionals is bad too. |
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Chainsaw
Joined: Aug 31, 2005
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| Posted:
Jul 11, 2013 - 01:24 |
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| King_Ghidra wrote: | | I'm glad you pitched up, because I think Pig Sty Alley are awesome, and I can't help thinking you've been rather outrageously unlucky in losing three qualifier finals. As you imply though, I think if some of the other top coaches looked at building tourney Necros we'd soon see a couple of stat-freak-loaded teams in the mix and ready to rumble. |
I made bad mistakes in all 3. If you want to stand any chance in Majors of progressing to the finals [let alone stand a chance of winning one] then you have to play a tight game.
Sadly PSA aren't in great shape at the moment. When I get my mojo back I'll try and shake them down a bit. |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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| Posted:
Jul 11, 2013 - 01:30 |
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| Chainsaw wrote: | | Garion wrote: | | Because Undead are uber good at low TV, best rookie team in the game along with orcs and wood elves imo. They also have regen which in its self is meant to be 30k per player. |
*double take*
What!?! Best rookie team? Are you insane? Necro are really hard to play at rookie level. OK, you get frenzy and stand firm... that gives you an angle.
1) Hardly any block - a few bad block dice and it's curtains
2) Not strong - struggle against teams with a few ST4
3) Not agile - struggle against any elf team if you fail to cause cas
I'm not sure what experience you are basing your assertion [of low TV / rookie capability] on. |
Garion said Undead.
Sure cheaper zombies would maybe be ok on Necro but it would make Undead, one of the best rookie races, even better. |
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Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
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| Posted:
Jul 11, 2013 - 01:31 |
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| PainState wrote: | Chaos Pact; Goblin; Halfling; Human; Khemri; Lizardman; Necormantic; Norse; Slann; Undead; Underworld and Vampire.
Those are the Forlorn races. |
Lets leave out Goblin, Halfling, Underworld, and Vampire, as these teams aren't really meant to be competitive and look at the rest.
Khemri - AG2 removes all hope for them being a consistent high TV tournament team.
Lizardman - Completely OP in their sweetspot, can't win major tournaments because MNGs destroy the team and aren't good at high TV because it's nearly impossible to skill replacements.
Norse - Low-TV bash specialists are good for league and rookie tournaments, but get ripped apart by AV9/Str4 bashers at higher TV
Human - I'd love to see this team buffed into tier 1 somehow. Ogre/Blitzer overcosting is crippling, and other than matching up perfectly against elves, can't handle AV9/Str4 bashers. Catchers are a terrible positional that needs some love.
Chaos Pact - Probably the second best team on this list, but only because of the TV efficiency of the marauder. Three positionals are either bad or overcosted (Skaven, Ogre, Minotaur), and one of the three remaining is a goblin. Clawpomb and a rostered elf the only saving grace. Can't bash with the AV9Str4 rosters.
Necromantic - Fantastic in their sweetspot. Werewolves should probably get the slaan blitzer treatment and GSA access. Still wouldn't beat elves, might do better against bash.
Undead - Yet another sweetspotting team, and my choice for the best rookie roster in bloodbowl. Despite having one of the best positionals in the game (mummy), have limited Str access and no AG4.
Slaan - Grossly overcosted blitzers and expensive, mediocre linemen. The fact that they generate turnovers better than any other team means they can win. Slaan are due to win a major.
Toss out Slaan and Pact, which can, and probably will win a major eventually, and the rest of the teams have one of things in common.
Either AG4 or more than 4 S access players (excluding big guys)
The only team that HAS won a major with neither of these two things are Amazons. Pact, Slaan, and perhaps even Vampires probably have an outside shot at winning one, and they do have either or both. All 3 are hindered by a complete lack of starting skills, or in the case of Slaan, having their starting skills nullified at high TV by the overcosting of players.
Your realistic choices for a major winning team are thus limited to either Elves or Str4/AV9 bash. There are some outliers who either exploit clawpomb (Chaos Dwarf), Clawpomb and oneturning (Skaven), or mutations and skinks (Tiny Steel Hammers). Other than that, your choices are pretty limited.
Doesn't mean there's no reason to play these other races. Undead are a fantastic rookie team, Necro are a beast in league, and Humans can occasionally pull out a win with their quasi-elf play.
I'd love to see humans raised to the level of the tier 1 races. I just don't see it happening without giving them AG4 catchers or 4 str access blockers. And that isn't gonna happen. |
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DonnyRainboe
Joined: Sep 13, 2011
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| Posted:
Jul 11, 2013 - 04:04 |
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| Quote: | | Catchers are a terrible positional that needs some love. |
Imho I think human catchers are good, and wouldn't have a human team without one.
Difters maybe got lucky with skill rolls but they are the only team to Finish a human conference season unbeaten in all 16 games.
They have a current record of (18/3/1) and have aggressive catchers, the star of my catchers is a sidestepping blodger with guard.
In my humble opinion people don't use human catchers properly. |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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| Posted:
Jul 11, 2013 - 04:14 |
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Umm...
The star is also AG5...
That kind of makes a difference. Most teams who can feature an MA8 AG5 player are going to do well.
Not to take away from the accomplishments your team has achieved, it has performed quite impressively, but still... AG5 is absolutely huge. |
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Overhamsteren
Joined: May 27, 2006
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| Posted:
Jul 11, 2013 - 04:24 |
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Of course there is also 3 ag3 catchers, something few human teams have.  Will be interesting to see how they do at 1600k+ TV
Besides that I compiled some CRP Majors stats, necros haven't been in a CRP final yet while High Elf, Lizardmen, Chaos pact, amazon, undead and khemri all have.
https://www.fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=blog&coach=31999 |
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Chainsaw
Joined: Aug 31, 2005
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| Posted:
Jul 11, 2013 - 04:28 |
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| JimmyFantastic wrote: | Garion said Undead.
Sure cheaper zombies would maybe be ok on Necro but it would make Undead, one of the best rookie races, even better. |
My humble apologies Garion.
You just can't legislate for people who are unable to read. |
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Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
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| Posted:
Jul 11, 2013 - 05:03 |
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That human team is great and all... definitely no joke going 18-3-1.
With that said... You've had an AG4 catcher and a block ogre since game 3. The ogre now blodges and the catcher is now AG5 ready for leap. As you pass the 1500tv mark, that str5 block/mighty blow probably isn't going to continue to be your primary blitzer (9 blocks/game right now). Also, this is when box teams start to finally start to think about getting tackle. In your last game, your first against Dwarf/CD, your catchers were on the pitch for 4,4,6, and 10 turns respectively. Expect this trend to continue, now that the STR4/AV9 bashers aren't playing without block, tackle, or mighty blow anymore.
Not to take anything away from your team, it's just not a good representation of humans in a major. |
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gamelsetlmatch
Joined: Mar 05, 2013
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| Posted:
Jul 11, 2013 - 05:22 |
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DonnyRainboe
Joined: Sep 13, 2011
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Jul 11, 2013 - 05:36 |
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Yeah i get that Relvis is a special player, but i find movement 8 with dodge just really useful even if it does come with come with strength 2.
I'm also aware that this team could get slaughtered soon as it gains weight, one of the reasons i've never made a run at the Human league premier. Maybe one day.
Anyway back to necros. I'll be entering my necros in the next major or my 2400k Nurgle. So what would you suggest to get Nostrus ready for a major?
I will not cut a healthy player other than a zombie and Swooner our kicking skipper stays. |
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gamelsetlmatch
Joined: Mar 05, 2013
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| Posted:
Jul 11, 2013 - 14:13 |
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Pretty lucky for your humans to only face dwarves once.. |
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Overhamsteren
Joined: May 27, 2006
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| Posted:
Jul 11, 2013 - 14:23 |
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| DonnyRainboe wrote: | | So what would you suggest to get Nostrus ready for a major? |
Get some sure hands and see how far a min/max squad + inducements can get you? |
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C3I2
Joined: Feb 08, 2005
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| Posted:
Jul 11, 2013 - 14:32 |
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Second weight, and get some lucky rolls on him (or just go S access skills+tackle). |
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spubbbba
Joined: Jul 31, 2006
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| Posted:
Jul 11, 2013 - 19:55 |
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Necros have the same issues at high TV as all hybrid teams. These teams don’t have the killing power of the pure bashers so can’t take them on in an even fight. They don’t have the mobility or agility to avoid the bashers with any degree of reliability so can’t run away from them either which often results in them being easier to beat up than elves.
When facing agile teams they can’t match them for scoring potential with less ball handling ability and speed. Neither can they take their players out fast enough to consistently beat them and are more likely to take damage from them in return.
Another problem with hybrid teams is that they tend to need substitutes since they will do badly when understrength. Also many of their players don’t have a great choice of normal skills. A beastman or dark elf lino with 4 normal skills is a very useful player, the same is often not true for most hybrid linos or even positionals. The need for doubles and stats on these teams to compete at high levels further pushes up TV bloat.
The only hybrid team that has had any real success is skaven, but they can start with 4 AG4 players and are 1 of the fastest teams in the game so they are practically an agile team. Stormvermin can be turned into deadly killers as well with mutation access on doubles so they can be quite bashy too.
Necros suffer from all the hybrid team problems at high TV. They have an added disadvantage that most of their players are not that great as rookies.
Golems take forever to skill up and even then are basically super zombies, useful but nothing special.
Zombies are even harder to skill up than golems and have few decent choices (pretty much block/wrestle or DP). Though you need some with doubles to get guard and block.
Wolves can be some of the best players in the game, but as rookies they are a liability with only average ball handling skills and frenzy getting them into trouble with no block if you use them for blitzing.
Wights are decent all round players, but they are basically a human lineman with block on the pitch. They have lots of good normal skills to chose from and benefit from stats, plus it’s quite easy to get them spp’s
Ghouls are good to start with as well, but very fragile and only have a couple of great normal skill picks.
I do wonder how much of the lack of major success for hybrid teams is down to perception.
If less coaches and more importantly less top coaches take them than teams like Chaos or Dark elves then of course they won’t do as well.
So is it that they are genuinely much weaker at high TV?
Or is it harder to build a decent hybrid team? So when a major rolls round then most have a stronger bash or agile team they can use instead. |
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