King_Ghidra
Joined: Sep 14, 2009
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 Posted:
Jan 08, 2014 - 11:50 |
 
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Background:
From http://fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=24472
| King-Ghidra wrote: | Considering the amount of discussion about nerfing bash in the box, etc. we can at least conclude categorically that the noise that Christer is responding to has nothing to do with ability to win games and everything to do with other factors (viz. Jimmy F's long-stated opinion that this is about whiners, pixel-hugging, dead mens, etc.).
FWIW, the very clear distinction these stats show in terms of the races people select in the given divisions shows to me that the divisional split has had an unintended and counter-productive consequence for the mindset of the FUMBBL community. Hopefully it inspires the powers that be to stop wasting time mucking around with rules variants and resolve the split community/force a true ranked play environment instead of fracturing and diluting it further. |
| The_Murker wrote: | @ KingGhidra
Uh.. I usually count you amongst the more rational posters here. I'm just not following the current logic. Could you explain how the stats above lead to the conclusions you draw in each paragraph? Or not, but I'm actually interested in the train of thought. Thanks. |
Well, as far as the stats go, the key ones here are
a) the very obvious racial bias in the two divisions
b) the non-exceptional win rates of the clawpomb teams
Both of these are fuel for the fire of some general opinions of mine regarding the divisions and community, but it is off-topic of the OT so I'll start the discussion here.
Splitting the playerbase feels fundamentally wrong to me to begin with. This is nothing to do with stats, it is a gut opinion based on the ability to get games and the sense of competitiveness and community on the site.
The stats show clearly that 'bashing' teams are more prolific in the Box and 'non-bashers' in Ranked. Box was never created as a bashing division, despite the retcon in its description that implies it is now somehow for advanced or tough-guy players or whatever. The divisional splits should be purely about the method by which games are organised - the reality is that they are now entirely different communities with different expectations and different representations of teams, play style and metagame.
Another effect of this situation is that it makes the site's Ranking system (long a subject of debate as to its value, I know) devalued within the community. Success on FUMBBL is currently denigrated as being either a result of picking or minmaxing (as evidenced in the original thread, where the 'best' players felt forced to defend themselves).
If you look at other modern online gaming communities, Ranked play normally never involves the level of control and arrangement that the current Ranked division does. Typically it would be something more like Box, but involving a stronger element of player skill in the matching.
All the above taken into consideration, I believe FUMBBL would have a stronger, more varied, less divisive environment that was both more challenging to good players and more forgiving to weaker players if the divsions were merged and ranked play was based on forced matchmaking with a mechanism of a kind discussed at length elsewhere on these forums. I believe any arranged games should be played in a non-ranked/non-CR environment (League).
Why would this help:
1) Easier to get games - more players in one division, more chance someone is looking a for a game at the same time as you. This is very simple and very important to the success of the site.
2) Matchmaking mechanism would be more meaningful - much of the discussion about box matchmaking is moot, because regardless of the complexity of the mechanism, many draws in box consist of four or five players and marginally more teams. The bigger your pool of players and teams, the more effective your matchmaking is at its intended result (fair & fun games)
3) Picking and all the opprobrium that goes with it would disappear.
4) Newer and less skilled players would find themselves playing players of a similar level more often, and being picked or picked on less often.
5) Minmaxers would not be able to count on succeeding in a small pond against predictable opponents
6) team diversity across all levels of play would be increased
7) The top players on the site would (just maybe) have the respect they deserve based on facing their peers and on being top of a ladder consisting of the entire player base, rather than some subset.
8 ) This would unify the Tournament scene once more, meaning all players could participate in the great variety of tournaments the site offers, and the tournaments themselves would have increase in credibility knowing all teams and players had their shot.
I'm under no illusions that this is perfection or a utopia or whatever, but I believe the benefits far outweigh the negatives. |
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DukeTyrion
Joined: Feb 18, 2004
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Jan 08, 2014 - 12:05 |
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Merging [R] and [B] would drive some of the [R] coaches away from the site and some of the [B] coaches away from the site. How many new coaches would it introduce? |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Jan 08, 2014 - 12:16 |
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Ziggyny
Joined: Mar 20, 2013
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Jan 08, 2014 - 12:40 |
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Yes, that's what he's saying. But he's also saying to include player skill in the matchmaking formula. |
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Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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| Posted:
Jan 08, 2014 - 12:43 |
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the_Sage
Joined: Jan 13, 2011
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| Posted:
Jan 08, 2014 - 12:54 |
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I would be fine with this, but also if it also included forced diversity, balancing matchmaking in favor of each coach playing their least played race or matchup. I would love to play flings/ogres/goblins in a box format, and would also gladly accept getting drawn against dwarves, but only if I knew the same thing could as easily happen to the other guy. |
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Roland
Joined: May 12, 2004
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Jan 08, 2014 - 13:02 |
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I've thought of this too recently...
I mean, why do we have two different divisions for ranked games, when it's just really two different ways to get a game? Either gamefinder och box scheduler.
Why should I not be able to set up a game in both ways in one division?
This way, box players can keep boxing and ranked players can still be elfballning. Some coaches may choose different method of finding game each time.
Yes, merge R and B but keep both ways of getting game (scheduler/gamefinder). |
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Calcium
Joined: Apr 08, 2007
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Jan 08, 2014 - 13:11 |
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| Roland wrote: |
Yes, merge R and B but keep both ways of getting game (scheduler/gamefinder). |
Maybe i'm missing something here but isn't that exactly what we have now?
So you would have a ranked 'gamefinder' facility and a ranked 'scheduler' facility. Sounds like the ranked and blackbox we have now!
I can't see the benefit of doing this other than inhibiting coaches ways of playing the BB they prefer here, and that would obviously be a bad thing to do. |
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SzieberthAdam
Joined: Aug 31, 2008
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Jan 08, 2014 - 13:14 |
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| Roland wrote: | | Yes, merge R and B but keep both ways of getting game (scheduler/gamefinder). |
Exactly, with a little flavour: Match reports should show which way the match was scheduled. Teams should also have a little stat table including the same data. I believe some boxhugger sticks to his/her bragging right of playing random matchups only. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Jan 08, 2014 - 13:14 |
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| Ziggyny wrote: | | Yes, that's what he's saying. But he's also saying to include player skill in the matchmaking formula. |
Ah yes. It gets even worse. 
There could be some merit in putting the scheduler in Ranked but none at all in effectively making Box/New Box the only 'competitive' division.
15 Pages is pretty optimistic. The simple answer is "no".
Unless we just ignore the OP and argue our own different ideas as usual. 
Even having Scheduler + Picking doesn't help that much. It is not a big deal to create teams in both divisions.
Just imagine the whining when a legion of ultra bash teams turn out for every Ranked tournament.  |
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Igvy
Joined: Apr 29, 2007
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| Posted:
Jan 08, 2014 - 13:26 |
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| koadah wrote: |
15 Pages is pretty optimistic. The simple answer is "no". |
+1 |
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Roland
Joined: May 12, 2004
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Jan 08, 2014 - 13:40 |
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| Calcium wrote: | | Maybe i'm missing something here but isn't that exactly what we have now? |
Can I activate a [R] team in the blackbox scheduler already?
or look for a game with [B] team in the gamfinder? |
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Calcium
Joined: Apr 08, 2007
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Jan 08, 2014 - 13:42 |
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| Roland wrote: | | Calcium wrote: | | Maybe i'm missing something here but isn't that exactly what we have now? |
Can I activate a [R] team in the blackbox scheduler already?
or look for a game with [B] team in the gamfinder? |
So you want the teams to crossover.....to what end? What possible benefit would this bring to either division other than being able to cherrypick more effectively?
2 divisions gives us 2 ways of enjoying BB here. This idea is plain stupid. |
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Rabe
Joined: Jun 06, 2009
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Jan 08, 2014 - 13:43 |
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One thing I'd miss is fluff-related: I wouldn't be able to set up specific matches (be it due to grudges, anniversaries or whatever). One might argue that a competitive division like Ranked isn't the place for such things after all, but right now we can do stuff like that. I would hate that for my Agility Monsters and we'd miss all those Buccaneers vs. Charioteers matches.
(Sure, the coaches could activate at the same time etc. - but that would be against the point of the scheduler and basically forbidden.) |
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Roland
Joined: May 12, 2004
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Jan 08, 2014 - 13:48 |
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| Calcium wrote: | | Roland wrote: | | Calcium wrote: | | Maybe i'm missing something here but isn't that exactly what we have now? |
Can I activate a [R] team in the blackbox scheduler already?
or look for a game with [B] team in the gamfinder? |
So you want the teams to crossover.....to what end? What possible benefit would this bring to either division other than being able to cherrypick more effectively?
2 divisions gives us 2 ways of enjoying BB here. This idea is plain stupid. |
they already do in the FC, why shouldn't they be able to all the time? |
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