| Poll |
| Which should be the 3rd skill? |
| Guard |
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5% |
[ 4 ] |
| Tackle |
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54% |
[ 38 ] |
| Dodge |
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8% |
[ 6 ] |
| Something Else |
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31% |
[ 22 ] |
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| Total Votes : 70 |
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babass
Joined: Apr 20, 2013
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 Posted:
Apr 16, 2014 - 12:40 |
 
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juggernaut!
and then tackle and jump up. |
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Chainsaw
Joined: Aug 31, 2005
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2014 - 12:54 |
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| JimmyFantastic wrote: | | Juggernaut is the kind of skill you pick when running out of options. |
Don't listen to this.
1) you need a double to get strength skills for HE
2) you'll rarely get 3 doubles on 1 player (MB>PO>juggs)
3) PO is half useless on its own because fend counters it
4) vs juggernaut, wrestle is terrible, but vs no juggernaut, wrestle is a superb skill (and vs agile teams, you'll face a lot of wrestle)
5) need a push? that 4/6 becomes a 5/6, or -2D that 4/9 becomes a 25/36 (better than 2/3)
6) it shifts stand firm so you can stand up markers then move that e.g. stand firm tackle/MB dwarf
Jimmy is half right in that its a finesse skill. On its own it is pretty meh. With frenzy or with MB/PO it becomes a very effective skill. However to blankly decree it is a "5th or 6th" skill is daft. You take the opportunity. You may not get it when your 5th and 6th skill rolls come around and you'll be at the 5th in no time, Nuffle willing, so can take tackle then.
Dodge on a pomber isn't a huge deal. His ass will be on the floor! |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2014 - 14:17 |
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3) PO is half useless on its own because fend counters it
lmao! Galak would be proud!
The rest isn't even worth responding to. |
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xyon
Joined: Apr 19, 2005
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2014 - 14:50 |
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This still being discussed? Take Juggernaught. It breaks wrestle, it breaks stand firm, it breaks fend. And then you can get frenzy next and its even better. |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2014 - 16:11 |
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Juggernaut's not terrible, no. All the stuff that Chainsaw said is true except PO being half useless, it's like "5% useless" because of Fend, and if so it's "30% useless" because of situational factors. But Tackle/PO is a more powerful combo than Juggernaut/PO, because when Fend works you still get MB but when Dodge works you don't get squat. (That and Pow/Push accounts for 45% of all 2d knockdowns vs Block players.)
Part of it is your own personal assessment of the value of a) Pro or Dodge, and b) a skill tomorrow. I think if you're being internally honest, you'll agree that Jump Up and Tackle (or Frenzy) are screaming needs for this player: if you think you don't really need to ever get him Dodge, and if you (foolishly IMO) overlook Pro because people do that, then you need to decide if you like Juggernaut so much you'd do without one of those two superior skills for awhile. He will skill fast, so it's not insane. |
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Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor. |
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Chainsaw
Joined: Aug 31, 2005
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2014 - 16:24 |
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| JackassRampant wrote: | | But Tackle/PO is a more powerful combo than Juggernaut/PO |
You make it sound like a binary choice? He's only got 20spp to the next skill. He can have both.
Jump up is not that big a deal. If you are pombing you are playing for cas not position in that turn. Jump up is not critical, but it is a nice-to-have. |
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Last edited by Chainsaw on %b %16, %2014 - %16:%Apr; edited 1 time in total |
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Chainsaw
Joined: Aug 31, 2005
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2014 - 16:25 |
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| JimmyFantastic wrote: | | The rest isn't even worth responding to. |
Of course it isn't worth responding to. You don't know what you're talking about so have nothing concrete to say other than juggernaut sucks. |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2014 - 16:44 |
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You are half right, one of us doesn't know what he is talking about. |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2014 - 16:57 |
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| Rat_Salat wrote: | You know, I read these threads all the time where people talk about how great juggernaut is, and I gotta say I almost never see it except on the odd orc blitzer. Someone even tried to convince me to take it over mighty blow on a wardancer once. Look, I'm sure this is a nice skill on G/S players, but it's a very rare elf that is going to want it over all the other great options.
Juggernaut is theorybowl at it's worst... sure it's useful, but you only get 5-6 skills per player. Mighty Blow, Guard, Sidestep, Tackle, Dodge, Piling on... there's 6 skills that are probably better. Then there's Frenzy, Grab, Jump Up, Diving Tackle, Strip Ball, Dauntless, Leap, and Fend that are all in that second tier with Juggernaut that you could also choose from.
There's 14 choices right there that are reasonable to put on an elf blitzer. Why juggernaut? I can make just as good a case for most of the rest, and most of the people suggesting it don't take it themselves. Why? Because there's almost always something better unless you're a minotaur or rat ogre. |
Wouldn't juggs combined with frenzy at least provide additional opportunities for strip ball to work when you get both down results? I've only taken juggs on a big guy with frenzy so I don't know how often it gets used. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2014 - 17:09 |
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yes it would in theory, but Wrestle and strip ball just work sooooo much better together that it makes that use somewhat pointless. |
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Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2014 - 17:11 |
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| mrt1212 wrote: | | Wouldn't juggs combined with frenzy at least provide additional opportunities for strip ball to work when you get both down results? I've only taken juggs on a big guy with frenzy so I don't know how often it gets used. |
I'm assuming this is in response to my juggernaut vs mighty blow wardancer. You're absolutely correct, juggernaut on a strip ball wardancer will deal with those annoying situations when you need a push and roll a bothdown. It's also got some other situational usefulness against wrestle and fend.
With that said, my belief is that mighty blow is far and away the best use of a double on a wardancer. It's just a better skill, the situation above notwithstanding. Are there situations where I might spend a double on juggernaut? Sure. It's a reasonable second double on a wardancer who already has tackle, sidestep, and strip ball.
The reason I've never taken juggernaut on a wardancer is that this situation has never come up for me. I wouldn't take it over any of the good singles because they are just better skills, and I don't want to end up with a stat freak legend who took juggernaut instead of tackle because I got too cute.
This is the "jump up" effect. I don't take jump up on a beastman before I have mighty blow, piling on, (and in my case block). That's because jump up, despite being a double, isn't as good a skill as block, mighty blow, or piling on. I don't take dodge first skill on a black orc, because block and guard are better choices.
There's a lot of situations where you can mistakenly make your player worse in either the long or short term by taking a double that isn't as good as the single roll you are replacing. Have the discipline to not get sidetracked. Rarer and more expensive does not always mean better. |
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Chainsaw
Joined: Aug 31, 2005
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2014 - 17:25 |
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| JimmyFantastic wrote: | | You are half right, one of us doesn't know what he is talking about. |
Because one of us is a braindead clawpomb addict who likes to just click kill with nurgle/chaos/cd.
Perhaps if you played more than a handful of games with another race, you'd understand the uses of skills outside of that killstack. Ironically, juggernaut can be a great part of it albeit, without block or movement, you'd rarely take it on a nurgle/chaos/cd player that wasn't a minotaur - which is probably why you think it sucks. |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2014 - 17:30 |
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| Purplegoo wrote: |
This suggestion is as sensible as Jugs. Thick Skull clearly ranks right up there too. One of the big three FTW.
Jimmy is, indeed, always right. Apart from when he isn't. And you can quote me on that. All of it or none of it.  |
Hmmmmm so is Purplegoo also a braindead clawpomb addict who likes to just click kill with nurgle/chaos/cd?
Or is he the best in the world? |
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Chainsaw
Joined: Aug 31, 2005
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2014 - 18:06 |
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| JimmyFantastic wrote: | Hmmmmm so is Purplegoo also a braindead clawpomb addict who likes to just click kill with nurgle/chaos/cd?
Or is he the best in the world? |
So your justification for your opinion is that somebody else said it?
Goo is obviously a top, top player. That being said, it does not make him a bible on BB or CRP in particular. I'd wager he's hardly had any players with juggernaut, and few with juggs/po/mb so his take on the matter might just be whimsical rather than based on experience.
Again the association with big guys does lend a stigma to juggernaut. It's seen as a way to avoid the both down on blitzes - but this totally understates how good a skill it actually is in moderation. Having a juggernaut player on your team (not on a big guy) gives you an edge in a game especially against wrestle, fend, stand firm and especially in combination with frenzy or pomb. |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2014 - 18:17 |
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No, I was pointing out how moronic your insult was. |
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