Smeat
Joined: Nov 19, 2006
|
 Posted:
Mar 26, 2015 - 21:17 |
 
|
Yeah, btr Xet is right.
Many forget #4.
For an accurate Throw, DC adds +1 to the Catch roll, so is like a poor-man's NoS (but for Catching Passes ONLY). Ag 4 Catchers in 1 TZ still catch on a 2+, etc. - which is really nice.
And if a Throw (or a Kick after a BLITZ! result) is landing next to an opponent, it's really handy to be able to stand off from them and suck that ball in to the Catcher. I've seen some very nice positioning created out of "nothing" using that on a Blitz!. |
_________________
Let's go A.P.E.!
(...and what exactly do you think they do with all those dead players?...) |
|
Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
|
| Posted:
Mar 26, 2015 - 21:23 |
|
| Xeterog wrote: | | #3 shouldn't work, as once you catch it, it's over the mid-field line and thus a touchback. |
It works just fine.
Also would be nice to get a little more appreciation for sharing that level of state of the art advanced tactics for a new race. Not nr.3 tho... wasn't me who came up with that..
We went through the rules extensively back then. I don't remember the exact reasoning anymore and I don't think it was perfectly clear.
But it was somewhat related to the mode of events, the end of the kick-off phase and the beginning of the turn... the ball technically lands on pitch and then gets snatched with dc post kick off without hitting the ground... something like that... I'm not really sure as it doesn't make perfect sense to me.. you'd have to check the archives.. bottom line is it works and is within the rules..
EDIT:
Ok, I rechecked. It seems Smeat convinced most people that it wasn't legal. The client still allows it tho. And I'm pretty sure it wasn't a bug, just something implemented differently.
Not really sure what to make of it but at worst I don't think it qualifies as cheating. WIthin rules, difference from boardgame or illeagal hmm, if the admins make a ruling on this to be illegal, I won't attempt again. Not like its coming up more often than once in thousand games anyways.  |
Last edited by Wreckage on %b %26, %2015 - %22:%Mar; edited 1 time in total |
|
Kryten
Joined: Sep 02, 2003
|
That's an interesting technical point. IMO, since the rules say that the ball must land in the opposing half, and diving catch prevents that from happening, it should be a touchback. The fine point of that is not directly addressed in the rules, sadly.
Interestingly, I found this clarification on the NAF site:
http://www.thenaf.net/blood-bowl/rules/clarifications/#14
"Diving Catch (DC)
If a player on the Kicking Team uses DC to catch the Kick-Off in their own half, this counts as a Touchback.
If you throw an accurate pass to a square adjacent to a player with DC, that player gets +1 to catch because it is an accurate pass, so e.g. Ag3 would catch on a 3+. If the catch is successful however, the thrower does not get SPPs."
I also tested the FFB client. In our implementation, a defender in his own half catching the kickoff using diving catch does not count as a touchback. |
|
|
El_Jairo
Joined: Jun 08, 2005
|
| Posted:
Mar 26, 2015 - 22:18 |
|
To quote CRP:
| Quote: | A kick-off must land in the opponent's half of the pitch. Assuming the ball lands in the receiving team’s half of the pitch, then it will either land in an empty square or a square occupied by a player.
If the ball lands in an empty square it will bounce one more square (see Bouncing Balls on page 13). If the ball lands on a square occupied by a player, the player must try to catch the ball (see Catching the Ball on page 13). If the ball scatters or bounces off the pitch or into the kicking team’s half, the receiving coach is awarded a ‘touchback’ and must give the ball to any
player in his team.
Once the kick-off has been taken you are ready to proceed to the first turn of the game. |
And on Diving Tackle:
| Quote: | Diving Catch (Agility)
The player is superb at diving to catch balls others cannot reach and jumping to more easily catch perfect passes. The player may add 1 to any catch roll from an accurate pass targeted to his square. In addition, the player can attempt to catch any pass, kick off or crowd throw-in, but not bouncing ball, that would land in an empty square in one of his tackle zones as if it had landed in his own square without leaving his current square. A failed catch will bounce from the Diving Catch player's square. |
So it clearly states it works on a Kick Off.
On the other hand you can't get rid of enemy tackle zones as you catch from your own square.
Rulewise DC works as a ball magnet to any stray airborn ball that lands next to them.
I do think you need to get lucky on the Pass scatter to catch any, unless you put 4 DC around the target catch, which sounds silly
But on Throw ins you can anticipate, if you have the luck even a turn in advance and set up a receiver in scoring position. There are only 3 direction the ball is thrown and around 7 squares is enough distance from the brawl to catch it in one of these 3 zones.
If you are on square "7" you have 44,42% of having a shot at the catch. If you factor in 3 directions, still 14,81% for just being there.
The beauty of it is that it can't cause a turn over and 2/3 of those occasion you also suck the ball to your square before scatter. So one TZ secured |
_________________
By the way Pheadrus, do we need anybody to tell us what is good and what is bad?
NAF n°: 21249 |
|
Kryten
Joined: Sep 02, 2003
|
You're missing the fine point there, El Jairo. It's not a question of whether Diving Catch should work on a kick off, it's a question of whether using diving catch to catch the ball in the defensive half counts as a touchback. |
|
|
Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
|
| Posted:
Mar 26, 2015 - 22:26 |
|
| El_Jairo wrote: |
I do think you need to get lucky on the Pass scatter to catch any, unless you put 4 DC around the target catch, which sounds silly |
The main issue is the unlikelyness to get an (opponent) inaccurate pass in the first place I think. Since high Ag directly reduces the inaccuracy chance and passers tend to have ag4 or 5, your chance to ever see one, ranges from very slim (1/6) to none (0/6)..
The most likely scenario to stumble over an inaccurate pass is an intentional throw with a low agility player and no intent to actually catch it in the first place.
But those kinds of throws are usually only done when it allows to outposition the opponent and he isn't anywhere near the target square. |
Last edited by Wreckage on %b %26, %2015 - %22:%Mar; edited 1 time in total |
|
Sigmar1
Joined: Aug 13, 2008
|
| Posted:
Mar 26, 2015 - 22:26 |
|
DC is great for bomb defense. Especially in Stunty. |
_________________
Badges? We don't need no stinkin' badges! |
|
Catalyst32
Joined: Jul 14, 2008
|
| Posted:
Mar 26, 2015 - 22:33 |
|
Thanks Wreckage that is quite a bit of things DC can do. I can see how it still isn't a skill worth taking on a skill up. But it is better than useless on a player that come with it.
| Wreckage wrote: | DC is a quite useful skill. It has ample amounts of uses with slann. I'd not really recommend paying for it tho.
1. You can not actually use it to move somewhere. You'll be stuck standing whereever your are. The ball comes to you. Also it doesn't work on hand-offs. The ball isn't flying there, you need to have the ball actually flying rather than bouncing. Also you can't hand off to an empty square.
2. The most common use for me has been during blitzes. The catcher usually has to move up to the square where the ball is. If you have DC you can choose an adjacent square, allowing you to choose from a total of 9 different squares to position your catcher in. The ball will also bounce from the new position. This allows you to reach the ball with reduced speed capabilities. Note that the square where the ball lands must be unoccupied.
3. One use that is a bit obscure is to utilize a kicker. In the unlikely event the ball scatters to the frontline and there is a perfect defense, you can snatch it from the other side of the pitch. Mind you if you drop the ball it will likely result in a touchback.
4. Recieving in tacklezones is a very viable option now. You don't have to worry about having somebody stand next to your catcher when you pass.
It's sometimes more benefitial now to pass instead to hand off tho. 2+2+ > 3+...
5. If you have an ag5 catcher you don't have to pass the full distance and can save GFI by passing behind him. With actions like that you can also better bypass potential intercept attempts.
6. When you set up for recieving, take care to have empty spaces around your various passers, this allows them to cover 9 squares each instead of 1 from where they potentially can catch the ball and save you the one or other pick up roll.
7. There is a hyptothetical very strong synergy with pass block in the way that you may not only be able to swoop in to profit from VLL with the catcher but also can pick off inaccurate passes directly when that fails. However, I haven't ever tested the efficiency or usefulness of that combo, due to need for different skills. It would be very interesting to see tho. I don't think I have ever caught an actual indirect pass from the other team.
8. Almost forgot: before the ball goes out of bounds there is mostly a decent enough overview to get a rough idea on what squares it may end up in. It is usually any of the closer squares and then in straight lines from the point of exit. So you can position recievers at potential weak spots to snatch the ball in case of an out of bounds... this way you can cover even squares close to the opponent where the ball might bounce right back on an opponent player and you don't have to stand in an actual zone. It did help me a couple of times. |
|
Last edited by Catalyst32 on %b %26, %2015 - %22:%Mar; edited 1 time in total |
|
PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
|
| Posted:
Mar 26, 2015 - 22:34 |
|
Diving Catch is a skill be used on AG3 teams, like human catchers. For 2 reasons.
#1 it gives a AG3 catcher, who has the catch skill, a defacto AG4 on catching a accurate pass, a poor mans +AG skill upgrade.
#2 It is also poor mans nerves of steel. Makes that pass to the catcher in 1 TZ the same odds as if you did not have DC in no TZ on the catcher.
Bottom line for me: all human catchers at some point should strive to take Diving Catch because it makes them better at their main job, catching the ball and running in for a score. |
_________________
Comish of the:  |
|
Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
|
| Posted:
Mar 26, 2015 - 22:36 |
|
Well, on a DC the ball doesn't scatter or bounce in the opponent pitch unless it scatters from the catcher and the catcher catches it from the half where it is supposed to land.
But really, I'm not trying to make a case here.. It's cool either way, afaic. |
|
|
Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
|
| Posted:
Mar 26, 2015 - 22:42 |
|
| PainState wrote: | | Bottom line for me: all human catchers at some point should strive to take Diving Catch because it makes them better at their main job, catching the ball and running in for a score. |
I really like that. As I don't play humans and if I do, usually neglect catchers and don't really know what the biggest concerns are: what would probably put me off, would be the fear to produce failed passes and the desire to rather do hand-offs than that..
Especially since speed isn't exactly a problem for humans and catchers... Do you think humans are generally relying on a passing game? |
|
|
PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
|
| Posted:
Mar 26, 2015 - 22:49 |
|
@wreckage
I do not mind passing the ball.
Human Throwers, once they get accurate, which is defacto AG4 on passing, means they pass out to 6-7 squeares on a 3+ with reroll. Standard odds for a AG3 player, I can live with those odds.
Human throwers with accurate pass on 2+ in Quick Pass 1-3 paces. So 2+ with reroll, the best odds in the game.
Couple that with a catcher who catches on a 2+ with reroll...now we are playing with Elf like odds to pass and catch the ball.
Also, these are all stock or normal skill ups...so very TV friendly.
I have also decided to play around with Hail Mary Pass on my humans...Nice skill, it really is, and now I have another reason to put some DC on my catchers...I had one match when I Hailed Mary and my catcher got the bounce on top of him for the catch...20 pace pass completion!!!!!!! |
_________________
Comish of the: |
|
PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
|
| Posted:
Mar 26, 2015 - 22:53 |
|
Human catchers I have found need these skills: Block, SureFeet, Sprint, Diving Catch, SideStep and Leap.
that is the ideal Human catcher legend build.
He can now do everything his job requires, gets a lot of free skill rerolls and he is a burner when it comes to speed and to perform those OTS attempts. |
_________________
Comish of the: |
|
Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
|
| Posted:
Mar 26, 2015 - 22:56 |
|
You lost me on leap. |
|
|
Catalyst32
Joined: Jul 14, 2008
|
| Posted:
Mar 26, 2015 - 22:58 |
|
Does anybody think DC would be more useful and taken more often IF it gave you the 1 square of extra movement option I mentioned in the OP? A way to potentially free up a Catcher from a TZ or to help get him closer to the End Zone. It could be a nice buff to the Passing Game that is under-utilized under the current rules. |
|
|
|
|
| |
Getting diced 3 game...
Search
