hbgs
Joined: Jul 22, 2011
|
 Posted:
Apr 22, 2015 - 20:44 |
 
|
So this is a two-part question, the first will be shorter, and the rest, hopefully a little longer ...
I'm currently having fun running a Skaven [B]ox team, that's had it's fair share of sweet skill rolls. I've just added a +ST to a Storm Vermin that already had +AG blodge guard, and have now rolled a normal roll for this +AG blodge SS leaping Gutter Runner.
First question is - what skill to take? I really don't know, but perhaps an answer to the second might help the answer to this one ...
Second question is - so where to from here? Part of what I love about Blood Bowl is team building and team design, growing and improving your players to get closer and closer to optimal build. For that, I have in mind to have at least one sacker GR, but my ideal skillset for him would start with wrestle/dauntless/strip (of course skills would be even better, but I always start with normal rolls in mind and adjust later as luck goes my way). I did have one of those, but he died, I currently have another in production that's just 2 SPP and a normal skill away from it. Would a second be a good idea, or is it redundant? With that in mind, I'm thinking the +AG GR isn't a sacker, so I'm not really leaning towards strip, unless someone can bring in a very convincing argument. How do I even play these guys - surely the +AG Storm Vermin is too powerful in the scrum to use as a ball carrier? This is more of an overall team theory/strategy discussion than a simple question, so feel free to comment or ignore as you will ... just thinking out loud here, and of course the ideas here will of course effect the answer to #1, which is why I also bring it up.
Sorry if this post seems a little disorganised, I think it reflects where I'm at with this team. Not quite sure what to make of them or how to handle from here. |
|
|
mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
|
| Posted:
Apr 22, 2015 - 21:01 |
|
If you aren't going to go with a sacker I say go with 1turning ability. Sprint for less blocks and more GFIs, Surefeet for more blocks and safer GFIs.
As for the +ST SV use him as a BC situationally. Too many options to really choose how he's gonna be but things like Juggernaut and Stand Firm are useful in and of themselves and right pains on blodge ST4 players. |
|
|
hbgs
Joined: Jul 22, 2011
|
| Posted:
Apr 23, 2015 - 11:09 |
|
Thanks for the reply mrt, only one in over twelve hours? Must've got lost between some other threads 
Sure Feet stands out to me more than Sprint, I don't usually have many problems getting enough pushes for a potential one turner (unless I don't have enough players on the pitch!). And I agree, SF is very tempting for the Storm Vermin if his next skill is normal. |
|
|
C3I2
Joined: Feb 08, 2005
|
| Posted:
Apr 23, 2015 - 11:19 |
|
Karusa Khan Blitzer 7 4 3 8 Block, Mighty Blow, Piling On, +ST, Tackle, Frenzy
You obviously did not read Ratsys rule of 5 thread. Always take claw you you already have MB/PO on a Skaven Blitzer. :-9
Unlike Ratsy, I like st4 juggernaut, frenzy types though. |
|
|
Leilond
Joined: Jan 02, 2012
|
| Posted:
Apr 23, 2015 - 11:22 |
|
I usually build my four gutters this way, except when some doubles or +stat change the plans
One sacker: Wrestle/Dauntless/Stripball/Leap (Change stripball with tackle if in your league there are a lot of sure hands)
One ball marker: Block/Side step/Fend/Diving tackle (take diving tackle first if there are not much PO in the league)
One Scorer: Block/Sure Feet/Sprint/Leap
One blitzer: Block/Dautless/Tackle/
All the gutters, before or then, no matter his "role", will make a very good use of: Side step, leap, fend, diving tackle and eventually sure feet (your scorer won't be on the pitch every time you need him). Take one of this skills for them when you really don't know that to do.
Blitzers:
Keep in mind that, during the opponent attack, one of your blitzer will be in blitz range and can suffer much damage. Thus, while you try to develope both of them, remember that one will eventually suffer a perm and will be fired more often than the other. By the way I will build them like this
Tackle/MB/Guard
Tackle/Guard/Grab (always forgot, but Grab is very important if there are a lot of side step in you league)
Do not forget Frenzy (if you think you can surf opponent) but your lack of strenght suggest to take Stand firm too, to not stay on the sideline after a surf and be surfed yourself.
KICK! For skaven is even more efficent than for a lot of other teams. For me it's always the first skill for the first line that skillup and the skill to the first legend gutter runner that I plan to protect more than others (the kicker lines usually die, every other match) |
|
|
C3I2
Joined: Feb 08, 2005
|
| Posted:
Apr 23, 2015 - 11:24 |
|
ITs B, so lots of armour and lots of claw. |
|
|
hbgs
Joined: Jul 22, 2011
|
| Posted:
Apr 23, 2015 - 11:26 |
|
Thanks Leilond for the general advice, but I did include links to the player and team in question. You did check them out, right? 
@C3 - I'm not the kind to turn down +ST for claw I even had one opponent (think it might have been Harad) who implored me not to take claw on him, as he has been so savagely deadly that he has never really needed it! 
I suppose I am leaning to Sure Feet then, meaning even more mobility to an ag5 leaper. Gotta be happy with that? |
|
|
albinv
Joined: Sep 15, 2012
|
| Posted:
Apr 23, 2015 - 12:04 |
|
I suck with skaven. However i have one team with stat monster vermins and i can say using them to score has been really rewarding. With AG4 and MA7 they are often a safer choice than a gutter or just as good - while you normally can protect the gutters easier than a vermin. So having the ball on the vermin in the right moment can be a real win-win situation.
Skillwise my skaven teams so far have been very blessed with doubles and stat ups on gutters.
Personally i think due to it i lack the basic blodge SS+DT combo for defense.
Having all these supergutters around which are dedicated sackers or can get it easier is nice. But i guess they can limit your tactics in the end.
You make the sack on defense and succeed but if you fail you might find yourself lacking the means to keep up pressure.
Personally i therefor have decided to build only 1 supergutter from now on and give the rest base skills.
They can column defend much much better and should still be good enough for a decent sack in most situations.
All i can contribute. Apart from the skill choice question the thread asks for general and in-depth advice on how to play skaven - im certainly not qualified for that. You seem to do fairly well with skaven anyway, better than me in any case |
|
|
Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
|
| Posted:
Apr 23, 2015 - 16:14 |
|
| C3I2 wrote: | Karusa Khan Blitzer 7 4 3 8 Block, Mighty Blow, Piling On, +ST, Tackle, Frenzy
You obviously did not read Ratsys rule of 5 thread. Always take claw you you already have MB/PO on a Skaven Blitzer. :-9
Unlike Ratsy, I like st4 juggernaut, frenzy types though. |
Actually, I said to take Claw on a superstar blitzer. Since this player still had two chances to roll a double by 76spp, I would have taken the +ST as well.
There are basically two versions of the +AG gutter runner, sacker and retriever. Since I generally open gutters with block or wrestle, the decision is generally already made by the time the +AG comes along. However, if I had my choice of either, I would build the sacker.
Since your gutter has block, he's probably your retriever. I don't think sure feet was a great choice at Superstar, I think sure hands would have fit better.
That rat would be your point guard and defensive retriever. If he managed to get a clear path to the endzone, your scorer as well. The +AG blodge Blitzer is a great addition, and gives you a 5th scoring option. I think the oneturner did well to go the sidestep route, especially with two +ST Blitzers to get him that initial push. I would be tempted to follow up with Sprint and Sure Feet though, naturals win games. |
|
|
licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
|
| Posted:
Apr 23, 2015 - 16:34 |
|
Sure feet?
Are you kidding? SURE FEET?????
The correct choice was clearly sure hands. Or strip ball. But it looks like you are grooming 2 other gutters for that path.
2 ST4 blitzers is awesome though. The one with AG feels like a waste as he can't really hit anything with his extra dodging ability, and while you can say he is a more mobile guard he's still not that useful for it.
I would have skipped the AG (unless this was taken very early in the team development) and certainly skipped dodge for claw. Because while a 7448/blodger is pretty cool, if you're an elf, you have MA9 freaks who usually handle the ball (also the thrower for the routine stuff) and run away from contact.
Oh well, looks like a fun team anyway. |
|
|
Harad
Joined: May 11, 2014
|
| Posted:
Apr 23, 2015 - 16:42 |
|
Yes it was I hbgs. It was the 7 casualties in 3 games that he inflicted on us (and I seem to remember several of them were deaths). A player who knows where it's at. |
|
|
Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
|
| Posted:
Apr 23, 2015 - 16:56 |
|
| licker wrote: | 2 ST4 blitzers is awesome though. The one with AG feels like a waste as he can't really hit anything with his extra dodging ability, and while you can say he is a more mobile guard he's still not that useful for it.
I would have skipped the AG (unless this was taken very early in the team development) and certainly skipped dodge for claw. Because while a 7448/blodger is pretty cool, if you're an elf, you have MA9 freaks who usually handle the ball (also the thrower for the routine stuff) and run away from contact. |
Actually +AG Blitzers are really amazing, especially ones with dodge. One of Skaven's biggest issues is getting their blitzers tied up by guard and ST4, and not being able to apply mighty blow to the appropriate targets. Another issue is the limited number of ball carriers, as attrition can leave you short of ball movement options at times. Having a +AG blitzer helps in both areas.
Skaven's strength is their ability to mix heavy attrition pieces with fast AG4. Normally, you would use an +AG stormvermin as a mobile hitter, but since this player has two ST4 stormvermin, he is using the mobile guard to create attrition/removal chances for the pomber. Since both players have ST4, they are much more difficult to lock down with ST4 and guard than normal skaven would be.
I think this would probably work a bit better with mighty blow on the +ST/+AG one, but you play with the cards you are dealt, and this player seems to be making the guard work for him. |
|
|
licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
|
| Posted:
Apr 23, 2015 - 19:44 |
|
Look, a 7448 blodge guard is a good player, no matter what.
He's just not what a skaven team really needs in my opinion. You need claw, you need claw much more than you need dodge on a blitzer.
The 'bloat' is also a bit of an issue, especially with 2 +ST, which you of course take and enjoy, but it also means that you don't need guard as much as you do when you don't have that st4 hitter.
I did actually have a +ST +AG blitzer on a skaven team though. I found him immensely underwhelming for his cost (and he had tackle and MB since that's kind of what you need). You score with the gutters (usually), you carry the ball with your thrower (or gutters). Your blitzers need to be able to kill things so that you don't lose the attrition game 5-1, but only lose it 5-3.
Some of this matters for what division you're playing in though. If you're in a TV matched environment you have to be pretty careful I think because giving up too many skills usually means your line rats drop that much more quickly to extra MB, and your gutters become more vulnerable to more tackle. If you can't punch back a bit you are in more trouble. If you lack tackle you can't even deal with the other blodgy AG4 teams.
If you have one guard you do want it mobile, but the higher the TV goes, the more you have to rely on -2dbs from your strip/wrestlers anyway. Making that lone guarder not very valuable (unless it's on a line rat, but then the value is for a different reason).
Anyway, the OPs team is very similar to my R skaven team, though I don't have the +ST blitzers (I used to...). Instead I have a cpomber and a MB/Guard blitzer (who takes tackle next if no double/stat). I also have a fully developed sacker, and my retriever (though only ag4, but meh, if you just roll regs you get stuck). And my utility/defense gutter who is block/sidestep/diving tackle/fend and on last skill up got guard. I even took sure feet on my retriever, but only at super star, and only because there really wasn't anything else that made him any better.
I just readded the 4th gutter to see if I can't get lucky with a stat on him, and since the other 3 are certain to get killed at some point, but going from ~1600tv to 1700tv does make a difference in what teams I face. Still, it's R, so what teams I potentially face since I don't really play much R these days anyway
At 1700tv in B you have to be prepared to fight the cpombers. If you can't remove them at least a little you're screwed relying on one turners and surviving the attrition. |
|
|
Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
|
| Posted:
Apr 23, 2015 - 22:17 |
|
Can't comment on box skaven past around 1400tv honestly, so maybe Licker is a better source for this instance.
With that said, in ranked, I'd be all over a blodge AG4 stormvermin. Sounds like a fun legend project to me. |
|
|
|
|
| |
NBFL Season 32: The ...
Search
