Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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 Posted:
Apr 30, 2015 - 05:39 |
 
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So, as I work on my guide I find myself running into questions I feel not really like an expert to.
For instance Skaven are not really a race I have a strong opinion on. As I work on my team-development section I find myself wanting to say how inferior a skaven passer is to a gutter runner for ball handling.
Yet, I do not remember any community talk about the topic or if there is a public opinion on that.
I know that a lot of Skaven coaches do run passers as ballhandlers but I do not know if that is for practical or fluff reasons or whether this common among high rated coaches.
Any way, I'd like to hear some opinions of Skaven coaches on the matter.
Thanks for your help. |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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Apr 30, 2015 - 05:49 |
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Throwers are fine. They don't cost much and come with sure hands which frees up gutters (and rrs) for other stuff.
Certainly you don't need one, but they don't cost you much either, and if you do luck into +AG on one they are pretty perfect for getting the ball of off the kick off and getting it to wherever it is you want it. |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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Apr 30, 2015 - 05:57 |
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| licker wrote: | Throwers are fine. They don't cost much and come with sure hands which frees up gutters (and rrs) for other stuff.
Certainly you don't need one, but they don't cost you much either, and if you do luck into +AG on one they are pretty perfect for getting the ball of off the kick off and getting it to wherever it is you want it. |
But does that matter? I mean, do you even run 4 gutter runners at all times? ..If you use one to carry it probably makes sense.. that's one player you protect anyways... but if you run 4 gutters and a passer, it is five.. then you probably want to protect at least one blitzer with cpomb.. which should be rather hard with a low strength low armor team...
...wouldn't it make more sense to maybe just hire a passer and skill him with leader and to use him like any other player?
Or would you, since you argue they don't cost much, use them as carrier since you already have one? |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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Apr 30, 2015 - 06:19 |
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Does sure hands matter?
Yes, it matters a lot  |
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CaptainKrunch
Joined: Nov 06, 2010
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Apr 30, 2015 - 06:23 |
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If you min-max, throwers are essential for leader on non-doubles, I think. They also can take kick if they get to 16 spp since you're going to want them on the field when kicking off already anyways. |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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Apr 30, 2015 - 06:35 |
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| licker wrote: | Does sure hands matter?
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You *could* just take it on a gutter... |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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| Posted:
Apr 30, 2015 - 06:45 |
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| Wreckage wrote: | So, as I work on my guide I find myself running into questions I feel not really like an expert to.
For instance Skaven are not really a race I have a strong opinion on. As I work on my team-development section I find myself wanting to say how inferior a skaven passer is to a gutter runner for ball handling.
Yet, I do not remember any community talk about the topic or if there is a public opinion on that.
I know that a lot of Skaven coaches do run passers as ballhandlers but I do not know if that is for practical or fluff reasons or whether this common among high rated coaches.
Any way, I'd like to hear some opinions of Skaven coaches on the matter.
Thanks for your help. |
I like them because of the sure hands in and of themselves but mostly because they are slightly okay to skill players who you will likely have field at all times until you get a bench. They aren't that far off from becoming defensive assets at 16 spp with Wrackle or Block and Kick/Leader/Pie!. Linerats are a pain to skill and they don't factor into offensively generated SPP ever. At least Throwers can.
AV7 is what it is. They will die in droves...like rats...you get a new one, you throw a pass and wait for MVP or get MVP and throw a pass, see where he goes.
I'd take him for the following exact reasons:
1.Surehands
2.They're a better value than Linerats
3.You can easily skill them from game one
4.Leader Reroll Access (Bigger for UW but mostly becomes a 31 or 51 spp skill due to lack of better options)
This is based on the idea that you want to have a constant flow of useful players on the pitch at any given time - sometimes you'll be down a gutter, sometimes a Storm Vermin, these things happen with regularity with Skaven. You don't want to be screwed with Linerats and Loners as your only recourse to play the game in the 2nd half. I've been there, I hate it.
There are usually enough easier targets of tactical importance on the pitch that after the kick sometimes he's a target, sometimes he isn't, depends on the coach you're playing. If you're marking the ball carrier, does that coach spend a blitz on your Block Leader thrower that's assisting someone or blocking off space?
Also, if you have a bench and a natural one turner with no defensive skills like horns or dauntless or SS, usually you sit him until he's needed. Perfect opportunity for a thrower to trot out there and earn his keep.
Those are my half baked thoughts at this time at least  |
Last edited by mrt1212 on %b %30, %2015 - %06:%Apr; edited 2 times in total |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Apr 30, 2015 - 06:47 |
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| Wreckage wrote: | | licker wrote: | Does sure hands matter?
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You *could* just take it on a gutter... |
Yeah, after you accrue +AG or spend a doubles on Big Hand. But purely offensive GRs live fast and die young and don't threaten ball carriers.
https://www.fumbbl.com/p/player?player_id=9611323
He's the example I like to use when discussing pure offensive/ball recovery artists. He's actually used his Leap + Surehands to score a TD in 2TZs after a botched attempt by another GR. |
Last edited by mrt1212 on %b %30, %2015 - %07:%Apr; edited 1 time in total |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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Apr 30, 2015 - 06:53 |
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And you should eventually.
But you don't start with it, and you likely don't take it until 3rd skill anyway.
Yes a gutter is a better ball carrier, but what is a pretty common aspect of skaven?
One turning.
Do you want a gutter making the pass? Making the pick up? Or do you want a player who comes with sure hands and pass for free doing it? Yes, AG4 is better than AG3, but AG4 without a rr, since you might want to save it for a leap or your gfis or even a dodge if there is tackle, is worse than AG3 pass and sure hands.
The thrower also lets you pick up a speck of TV when you take leader on him, but that's not so critical for skaven in my opinion, still, it's there.
Look at it this way, most teams would kill for an MA7 player with pass and sure hands. Skaven get one for the bargain of 70k! Play with him and you may not even ever want to add the 4th gutter since as you say it's not so much a necessity, and certainly, if you have a bench, you can leave the 4th (or even 3rd sometimes) gutter off the pitch entirely.
That all depends on your build though and the matchup and all the other stuff that we always say 'it depends' for
I'm not saying the thrower is a necessity, but I think it's a player a skaven team should use. As opposed to a DE runner for example. Or a WE thrower for that matter. |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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| Posted:
Apr 30, 2015 - 06:54 |
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| mrt1212 wrote: |
1.Surehands
2.They're a better value than Linerats
3.You can easily skill them from game one
4.Leader Reroll Access (Bigger for UW but mostly becomes a 31 or 51 spp skill due to lack of better options) |
My question tho... and I cannot emphasize this enough.. is when you do have passer, do you actually use him as carrier over a player that has ...more agility AND is faster AND starts with Dodge? Three of the single biggest assets a carrier could have? |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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Apr 30, 2015 - 07:01 |
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You can use him that way, but you don't have to. That's the beauty of it.
Skaven don't need their carrier to be the only one who touches the ball all drive, it's not far fetched (and indeed part of the skaven playbook I think) to use the speed of gutters to swing the ball quickly to an open part of the pitch. That does require hand off or pass anyway. Sure, you aren't taking catch on your gutters, though it might not be a terrible skill if they keep on rolling regulars.
So it's really a false question in my opinion. You use the thrower to collect the ball and initiate your offense. He might move up, get caged, and take the ball himself. He might stay back and when needed move up and pass it to a waiting gutter. You have that option with him. Because while he isn't MA9 or AG4 who else is? MA7 pass is pretty solid on it's own, but again, the real benefit is sure hands saving you rrs over the course of your games.
Yes, you will eventually also take it on a gutter, and you could clearly start without a thrower and do just fine with only using gutters, but that doesn't mean there isn't value to the thrower.
Biggest value? The boost he gives you for one turning with the free rerolls for the pick up and the pass (if you need the pass). |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Apr 30, 2015 - 07:11 |
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| Wreckage wrote: | | mrt1212 wrote: |
1.Surehands
2.They're a better value than Linerats
3.You can easily skill them from game one
4.Leader Reroll Access (Bigger for UW but mostly becomes a 31 or 51 spp skill due to lack of better options) |
My question tho... and I cannot emphasize this enough.. is when you do have passer, do you actually use him as carrier over a player that has ...more agility AND is faster AND starts with Dodge? Three of the single biggest assets a carrier could have? |
Not usually after turn 2, no. He's served his purpose. |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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| Posted:
Apr 30, 2015 - 07:27 |
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| licker wrote: |
Do you want a gutter making the pass? |
Yes, he has more ag.
| Quote: | | Making the pick up? |
Yes, he has more ag.
| Quote: | | Or do you want a player who comes with sure hands and pass for free doing it? |
The skills don't help when he fails his re-roll roll too.
| Quote: | | Yes, AG4 is better than AG3, but AG4 without a rr, since you might want to save it for a leap or your gfis or even a dodge if there is tackle, is worse than AG3 pass and sure hands. |
So maybe he is slighty better for OT-turning but even then maybe I'm better off just using some gutters and handing the ball off instead of passing it.
| Quote: | | Look at it this way, most teams would kill for an MA7 player with pass and sure hands. |
Not when he has ag3 and can ruin my offense... he can't dodge, he constantly fails his pick ups and he certainly can't pass.. |
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Catalyst32
Joined: Jul 14, 2008
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Apr 30, 2015 - 07:40 |
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| Wreckage wrote: | | licker wrote: | Throwers are fine. They don't cost much and come with sure hands which frees up gutters (and rrs) for other stuff.
Certainly you don't need one, but they don't cost you much either, and if you do luck into +AG on one they are pretty perfect for getting the ball of off the kick off and getting it to wherever it is you want it. |
But does that matter? I mean, do you even run 4 gutter runners at all times? ..If you use one to carry it probably makes sense.. that's one player you protect anyways... but if you run 4 gutters and a passer, it is five.. then you probably want to protect at least one blitzer with cpomb.. which should be rather hard with a low strength low armor team...
...wouldn't it make more sense to maybe just hire a passer and skill him with leader and to use him like any other player?
Or would you, since you argue they don't cost much, use them as carrier since you already have one? |
I don't play Skaven very often. But from what I see and from my experience with them the Throwers are fairly important players to have on the team. Once you have knocked the ball loose you want someone to scoop it up and handoff of pass the ball into a safe position (like the End Zone for a Touchdown).
The great thing about Skaven Throwers is that you don't have to protect them unless they become a special player. I see them as glorified Line Rats when they are rookies or have maybe only a couple of skills. You don't need to protect them any more than you do any other ordinary player on the team.
If they get +AG or +MA or roll a double for Guard... then maybe you protect them a bit more. But otherwise they have ST3 and are easily replaced... just like Line Rats. Until they develop who... cares if they die?
Sure... maybe you are facing some Wood Elves with Strip Ball in a game. For THAT GAME the Thrower might get some special treatment because his Sure Hands are a key to winning.
Plus having a guy out of the Box with Sure Hands lets you develop your Gutters with other skills your team needs more at the time. |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Apr 30, 2015 - 07:43 |
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Constantly = 8/9 chance of success.
It's not "optimal lowest risk possible" BB, but neither a 2+ pickup w/o surehands, and Guys like this don't just show up every day.
I play wreckless and backwards, sure, and I understand the value of playing the same way every time to just become familiar with how to handle responses to your moves, but still, it's flexibility for 20 tv more than the most fragile lineman in the game. |
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