Endzone
Joined: Apr 01, 2008
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 Posted:
Aug 05, 2015 - 13:33 |
 
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| mister__joshua wrote: | | Are you suggesting losing the Big Guys, or did you just miss them off? If you are then I don't agree, they're the iconic part of Pact for me. |
No, keep the big guys, skaven, dark elf and goblin too. My comments were just about changing the marauders part of the roster. |
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Endzone
Joined: Apr 01, 2008
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| Posted:
Aug 05, 2015 - 13:41 |
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| bghandras wrote: | | I think removing tackle from dorfs and price increase of amazons do a great job toward balance. I don't feel amazon as too good under those circumstances. |
You may be right - adding 110K to an 11 linewoman team is a lot at low TV. Maybe solving the problem is as simple as that - it would be nice to have it implemented so t could be play tested. I'd like t see Amazon's with access to big guy too, perhaps a Treeman. |
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plasmoid
Joined: Nov 03, 2009
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Aug 05, 2015 - 13:46 |
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Hi Harvestmouse,
| Quote: | | Good have more catchers/Dark have more blitzers. Darks prefer to run the ball and they also have a dark nasty side, where they enjoy inflicting injuries. If you go down to 2 blitzers, you're coming back into good elf territory. |
Depends of how rigid your thinking is I suppose.
With the stats I posted, I'd argue that the dark elfs still had 4 blitzers: 2 Classic evil blitzers + 2 stabby evil blitzers. Nothing says evil and injury inflicting like an assassin!
Cheers
Martin |
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Endzone
Joined: Apr 01, 2008
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Aug 05, 2015 - 13:59 |
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A couple more suggested tweaks:
1. Increase cost of Sauri to 90K
2. Decrease cost of DE Assassins to 70K (personally I still wouldn't take them at 90K or 80K - I don't think they are better than linemen, but at 70K I think lots more coaches might give them a go) |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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| Posted:
Aug 05, 2015 - 14:01 |
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I would completely redesign the elven rosters. They are too similar, yet not strong in the long run in a blackbox type environment. Maybe I am too bad at them (with that said my record is quite OK, and I am a dark elf coach at heart), but I cant make them really fire on all cylinders, like I cracked amazon, norse, necro, etc in such environment.
One option is as stated is removing the last 2 blitzers from dark elf. Another option would be to consider the pro elf lino for more rosters, as paying 70k often is not good business. Elven rosters err to the too expensive side in such environment. (Plus passing in general is not good, and I could continue.) |
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SzieberthAdam
Joined: Aug 31, 2008
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Aug 05, 2015 - 14:08 |
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@mister__joshua: I looked up your roster proposals. I like most of them. However some of them made me wonder for the first glance:
- Chaos is nerfed too much IMO. Let Reroll cost the same as before.
- CD: Weird. Dwarves have Tackle traditionally. Remove M access from Dwarves and Loner from Mino would be fine enough.
- Dwarf: Let Blockers as they are. Increase price of runners and blitzers by 10 instead. Your Deathroller design seems fine.
- Goblin: Dont fear to add Dp to the Looney.
- Halfling: Give them a free Chef.
- Khemri: Let TG as they is. If somewhere to move with skeletons, remove Thick Skull and set price to 30k. Or if you stick to your skeleton design, then move TGs towards the old mummy direction: add your 110k TG Mb or normal G access.
- Norse: Just remove Loner and let them as is. Or remove Throwers and have 0-2 Runners with Block, Fend, Sure Hands GA:PS 90k. That would reduce the number of positionals to 7 which would make more space to linemen. Your current design sill sticks to 9 positionals (too much IMO), however, I am not sure I would have 4 runners of yours in my team at any time.
- Ogre: 0-11 Ogre is too much. In addition, it should be even numbers by tradition. Make it 0-8. I would prefer Gnoblars for them with same stats as Halflings. Don't increase reroll cost.
-Undead: I would ban them. No need for them since Undead roster is splitted to Necro/Khemri/Vampire.
-Vampire: Reroll -20 is too harsh. Make it -10. And let vamps kill Thralls again! |
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Last edited by SzieberthAdam on %b %05, %2015 - %15:%Aug; edited 1 time in total |
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Kam
Joined: Nov 06, 2012
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| Posted:
Aug 05, 2015 - 14:40 |
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| Quote: | | - Ogre: 0-11 Ogre is too much. In addition, it should be even numbers by tradition. Make it 0-8. I would prefer Gnoblars for them with same stats as Halflings. |
I won't post the story here, but Flings and Ogres also work together in Warhammer world. And I believe there is more fluff around Flings than Gnoblars, at least for the average coach (seriously who had ever heard of Gnoblars before joing FUMBBL?), which is important for some. Admittedly, it's not a big deal, and they're a good reason to call then Gnoblars as well, but still. And while we're talking about fluff, I should also add that there are currently more "evil" races than "good" ones. Ogres are kinda neutral, and would be on the evil side with Gnoblars, and on the good side with Flings, which wouldn't be a bad thing IMHO.
And since I've been talking about Flings... Humans could use one, seriously (or even up to 4 like the Orcs with Gobbos). That wouldn't make them any better, but they sure would be fluffier. At least I know I would be playing them.  |
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Endzone
Joined: Apr 01, 2008
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Aug 05, 2015 - 14:54 |
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| mister__joshua wrote: |
I already had 2 goes at Pact (they're both on there). The second one with the Witch Elf and Beserker I probably prefer but it's a hard roster to write. I tried to think of races with a traditional bent for Chaos without including Beastmen or Warriors. In this version the Marauders lost the S access too.
I love the idea of Pact being a proper mix of all Chaotic races, like an Compendium-style allies roster. It's a hard one to manage though as throwing that many things together quickly becomes unbalanced. |
The two most important fixes to the Pact team are:
1. Restrict clawpomb access (which can be done by making marauder S access on a double only)
2. Make the big guys worth it (various options and removal of Loner is one)
For a smallish change to the roster like you have done for the other races the above is all that could be needed. |
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mister__joshua
Joined: Jun 20, 2007
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Well, this thread has had something of a mini revival. I'll add my thoughts on a few topics:
- I've been looking at Dark Elves again and think this could work: Give the Assassins +1 MA (making shadowing better) and get rid of the Runner. Keep the Assassins at the modified 80k. This keeps the current 8 MA7 players (4 Blitzers, 2 Witches, 2 Assassins) but Assassins are more fun (and more useful) than Runners.
- I do think removing Loner from Bigs and S access from Pact are good changes. My fear is that removing the S access on their main players is a big nerf unless the positionals are boosted/changed in some way. That's why I went for the Beserker (S access player) and Witch (A access and better than the line-elf). It's feasible to try it with the current positionals though. Maybe the boosted Bigs would be enough to hold them up.
- Ogres I give up on  . Ok not really, but I don't know what's best to pair them with. I really wouldn't be against making Ogres 0-16, pairing them with nothing, making their re-rolls 100k and seeing what they can do. The problem would be starting teams wouldn't be able to afford 11 men.
- I wouldn't be against making Sauri 90k but I don't think Lizards are overly powerful anyway. If I did that I'd make the Skinks 50k. If Amazons had a Big Guy I'd make it the Krox.
@SzieberthAdam's comments:
- I still think Chaos would be powerful top-end. It's only 1 double for a CPOMBer (like CDorfs currently).
- The Dwarf and CDwarf changes have been discussed a lot. I don't think of Tackle as their tradition, I think they're unique on their own. In this case I don't think price increases (like you suggest) would really hurt them at low TV where they're a problem. In fact it would lead to more linemen and so more of a problem for Stunties etc.
- Giving a Chef is outside of Roster scope.
- I think Norse could probably drop 2 runners and be fine, yeah. Give them P access and drop the throwers but maybe increasing the number was too far.
- I'd never remove a roster, especially an iconic one like Undead. BB doesn't follow Warhammer lore exactly.
- I don't think Vamps could get too big a boots |
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Endzone
Joined: Apr 01, 2008
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Aug 05, 2015 - 16:11 |
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I like the idea of the Runner and the Assasin on DE teams - they just aren't good enough for their price to get in. Maybe throw in NoS on the Runner for free (cruel, ice cold blood and synergises with Dump Off). I think just make the Assassin cheaper at 70K. |
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SzieberthAdam
Joined: Aug 31, 2008
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Aug 05, 2015 - 16:36 |
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@mister__joshua: Thanks for your response, I understand most of your points.
However, I fear that the effort to restrict ClawPOMb gets contraproductive. Currently, the number of legend players are like N-times as many as before. Something should kill/retire players or we are going to have a legend(?) in almost every team. I understand that ClawPOMb should get restricted somehow to avoid people frustration. My suggestion would be to allow PO to Big Guys only, but it is out of the scope of rosters... Or, well, rosters should get designed in harmony with the ruleset. NTBB alters some of the rules as well. If you just want to focus on the rosters with current rules, that is fine.
Still, by putting M access to the double area or taking it completly form a race is going to result a huge drop in the number of current ClawPOMBs: 42% to get Claw in three skill rolls, 52% to get it in four skill rolls if Claw is in the double area.
Currently, Chaos is in the lower end of win potential in low TV (http://www.cmanu.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/bb/stats/stats.html). They struggle without the Blocks and MBs and burn rerolls fast and easily. Building the killstack is plenty of matches to play and a single Claw is not worth too much on a player at the beginning. By increasing the reroll cost for them makes them even weaker in low TV.
But anyway, I like your concept. Nice work! |
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Last edited by SzieberthAdam on %b %05, %2015 - %20:%Aug; edited 2 times in total |
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jamesfarrell129
Joined: Dec 23, 2009
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| Posted:
Aug 05, 2015 - 16:54 |
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Some more thoughts from me as well:
Clawpomb related:
* The Chaos roster should really be the most killing-est one going, so I'd say leave it as is. They suck at low TV / tournaments, but can evolve into something nasty... or they can evolve into a fun team with different mutations.
* Chaos pact are trickier. Ideally I'd agree with the suggestion of having more positionals... so the basic marauder would lose S and P access (so would be GM/ASP), but there would be different positionals. These wouldn't necessarily get M access on a normal roll. The 2nd edition All-Stars roster had 2 chaos human throwers and 2 blitzers - these guys were NOT mutants, so I could see GP/ASM and GS/APM as their skill access. Then leave the rest of the team as it is. Of course... this leaves something like 8 or 9 different roster positions, which may be too many (personally I'd add chaos dwarf blocker and orc lineman to the list as well, but hey ho...)
Dark elves:
Remove them altogether? *hates dark elves with a passion...*
I think the runner is fine as is; some people will take one, some people will not.
The assassin needs a big boost; adding MA is definitely an idea. A 10k drop and extra movement could work but maybe they need another skill as well... sidestep maybe?
That said, the main issue is that there's no point in starting a DE team with anything other than 4 blitzers, 7 linos, 2 rerolls (maybe a runner and 6 linos at a push) as anything else is less-than-optimal. So no idea how to fix it  (kill them all and remove the roster!!) |
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Endzone
Joined: Apr 01, 2008
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| Posted:
Aug 05, 2015 - 17:50 |
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Chaos Pact 1 (based on Chaos All-Stars, 2nd Editon)
0-1 Minotaur
0-1 Ogre
0-1 Troll
0-1 Dark Elf 6338 GA:SPM 70K
0-1 Skaven Mutant 7228 Two Heads GM:ASP 60K
0-1 Goblin 6237 A:GSPM 40K
0-2 Chaos Human Blitzers 7338 Block GS:APM 90K
0-2 Chaos Human Throwers 6338 Sure Hands, Pass GP:ASM 70K
0-1 Chaos Human Mutant 6338 Tentacles GM:ASP 60K
0-1 Chaos Human Mutant 6338 Hypnotic Gaze GM:ASP 70K
0+ Chaos Human Linemen 6338 G:ASPM 50K
Without a rule change M access tends to be claw access so lets start the mutants with their starting mutations and price accordingly.
Chaos Pact 2 (Chaos 'Compendium' Mixed Race)
0-1 Minotaur
0-1 Ogre
0-1 Troll
0-1 Dark Elf 6348 GAM:SP 70K
0-1 Skaven 7337 GM: ASP 50K
0-1 Goblin 6237 AM: GSP 40K
0-1 Orc 5339 GM: ASP 50K
0-1 Chaos Dwarf 4329 Block, Thick Skull GS: APM 60K
0-1 Beastman: 6338 Horns GS: APM 60K
0+ Mauarauders GM: ASP 50K
This time we are not trying to mimic the Chaos All-Stars so prescribed mutants and human positionals are not included but there is a broader 'chaos' roster. Mutations are allowed on normal rolls in this version to get the mutant flavour. However, where players already have normal roll access to S, M access is limited to doubles. |
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mister__joshua
Joined: Jun 20, 2007
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I think if you're going to go that long with a roster then you're better going the way Garion did with the Tileans in Secret League and just have something like:
Ogre, Mino, Troll, Marauders + any 4 players from (Chaos, Chaos Dwarf, Skaven, Orc, Dark Elf etc.) who also gain M access.
I think as a traditional roster those are a bit long though  |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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| Posted:
Aug 05, 2015 - 19:53 |
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| bghandras wrote: | | I would completely redesign the elven rosters. They are too similar, yet not strong in the long run in a blackbox type environment. |
So you think we should be designing Blood Bowl on what is happening in Black Box? I can't even comment on that.... |
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