FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: Apr 25, 2017 - 14:12

licker wrote:

Pro is trash.

kingvan takes Pro on his Vampires and I don't think he's a bad coach. He wins a lot with them and he's the top Black Box Vampire coach https://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=coaches&order=&d=10&r=60.

He has one Vampire without Pro because he's a stat freak: https://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=751375

Purplegoo wrote:

I'm not a Pro man either. I think if something is worth rerolling, you reroll it. I

Sure, but after you rerolled it, you may still need to rr something else, like Hypnotic Gazes to open a cage or a 2 dice block on the ball carrier.
I'm not a fan of Pro either, but Vampires are an exception.

Purplegoo

Joined: Mar 23, 2006

Posted: Apr 25, 2017 - 15:07

I specifically meant that comment in the context of Vampires. I appreciate there is a well supported pro Pro school of thought, it's just not for me. I can maybe see it as a third skill or later, depending on the makeup of the team at that time, but I'm stretching hard to do so. I'd mainly rather have skills and plan with failure in mind than have a 50/50 shot at Pro working on something I don't consider important enough to dedicate a RR to.

Vampires are one of the more interesting races in the game. As with the long running Slann Blitzer debate, while I have a strong opinion on Pro for Vampires, I think the roster supports good coaches thinking the opposite well enough. Vampires can become quite tailored to the individual, which is pretty nice.

zakatan

Joined: May 17, 2008

Posted: Apr 25, 2017 - 15:36

more vamps is better than less vamps

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licker

Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Posted: Apr 25, 2017 - 19:01

The problem (such as it is) with Pro, is that you have to plan for its failure anyway, because most of us are not going to risk those 50% no back up plans unless we simply have no other choice.

If you are planning for it to fail anyway (I'm talking about BL obviously, not other actions), then why do you even need it in the first place? All of a sudden we are talking about using it for 'other actions' and at that point, most people already agreed that Pro was trash.

People will argue endlessly for taking it on big guys too, because it helps with the nega traits, well it's the same logic for Vamps as well isn't it? Other than it not being a double to take.

Look it's not like Pro being trash suddenly turns your team into trash, and when you talk about the best coaches out there it's sort of a meaningless comparison because they have the ability to out play most of their opponents even with 'different' builds.

Look at Azure and his Rat Ogres for example (though that one is not as obvious as other decisions).

But anyway, Pro as a 'late' skill on a vampire probably doesn't cost you much. Pro as a spammed skill on a team trying to keep TV down and only using 3rrs, again, you can choose to do that as well. There are certainly niches within different environments where certain builds will be better than they would be outside of those niches. Note that doesn't suggest those builds are actually better than other builds though.

Tricktickler

Joined: Jul 10, 2004

Posted: Apr 25, 2017 - 19:32

licker wrote:

If you are planning for it to fail anyway (I'm talking about BL obviously, not other actions), then why do you even need it in the first place?

To increase the chance of not failing perhaps?

MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: Apr 25, 2017 - 19:33

licker wrote:

The problem (such as it is) with Pro, is that you have to plan for its failure anyway, because most of us are not going to risk those 50% no back up plans unless we simply have no other choice.

If you are planning for it to fail anyway (I'm talking about BL obviously, not other actions), then why do you even need it in the first place?

Because some not-turnover actions can be failed, yet you want them to be successful, for example Hypno Gazes.
And Hypno Gaze is just one example, I won more than 1 game by rerolling with Pro actions I could have not rerolled due to previous team rr use (for double skull or other turnover action).

licker wrote:

People will argue endlessly for taking it on big guys too, because it helps with the nega traits, well it's the same logic for Vamps as well isn't it? Other than it not being a double to take.

Big Guys have no G access, unlike Vampires, so there are more reasons to take Block over Pro (double roll required).

licker wrote:

Look it's not like Pro being trash suddenly turns your team into trash, and when you talk about the best coaches out there it's sort of a meaningless comparison because they have the ability to out play most of their opponents even with 'different' builds.

So kingvan is playing his Vampires as a fun project, and not to win games? It doesn't seem so.
He doesn't seem a guy playing for fun with weird builds.

licker wrote:

Look at Azure and his Rat Ogres for example (though that one is not as obvious as other decisions).

Azure is not the best Black Box Vampire coach, I used kingvan because he is a relevant example of a successful Vampire team.
I judge the things I see, if the top Black Box Vampire coach didn't use Pro on his Vampires then I might agree about Pro being a meh skill on them.

licker wrote:

But anyway, Pro as a 'late' skill on a vampire probably doesn't cost you much.

Block, Dodge first, then Pro as third/fourth skill IF stats are not rolled meanwhile.

mrt1212

Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Posted: Apr 25, 2017 - 19:40

I don't think I've ever regretted taking Pro on AG5 Vamps.

licker

Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Posted: Apr 25, 2017 - 19:47

MattDakka wrote:

licker wrote:

The problem (such as it is) with Pro, is that you have to plan for its failure anyway, because most of us are not going to risk those 50% no back up plans unless we simply have no other choice.

If you are planning for it to fail anyway (I'm talking about BL obviously, not other actions), then why do you even need it in the first place?

Because some not-turnover actions can be failed, yet you want them to be successful, for example Hypno Gazes.
And Hypno Gaze is just one example, I won more than 1 game by rerolling with Pro actions I could have not rerolled due to previous team rr use (for double skull or other turnover action).

Then this is an argument for pro for ANY player, not just Vampires.

MattDakka wrote:

licker wrote:

People will argue endlessly for taking it on big guys too, because it helps with the nega traits, well it's the same logic for Vamps as well isn't it? Other than it not being a double to take.

Big Guys have no G access, unlike Vampires, so there are more reasons to take Block over Pro (double roll required).

Yes, that's what I just said. More reason to consider pro on a player with 'loner' was the unspoken part, but even pro is a debatable skill for big guys who roll multiple doubles. Beyond which, BL doesn't keep the Vampire from being able to take their action, it only requires a thrall be next to them when they have finished it. So BL is easier to 'work around' than Bone Head.

MattDakka wrote:

licker wrote:

Look it's not like Pro being trash suddenly turns your team into trash, and when you talk about the best coaches out there it's sort of a meaningless comparison because they have the ability to out play most of their opponents even with 'different' builds.

So kingvan is playing his Vampires as a fun project, and not to win games? It doesn't seem so.
He doesn't seem a guy playing for fun with weird builds.

Did I say any of that? No.

MattDakka wrote:

licker wrote:

Look at Azure and his Rat Ogres for example (though that one is not as obvious as other decisions).

Azure is not the best Black Box Vampire coach, I used kingvan because he is a relevant example of a successful Vampire team.
I judge the things I see, if the top Black Box coach didn't use Pro on his Vampires then I might agree about Pro being a meh skill on them.

I didn't mention Azures ability with Vampires. I made the point that the best coaches can use 'different' builds and find a lot of success anyway. Some of the questions (like RO for Skaven) seems to be about preferred play style anyway, so yes, you or I may do better with a different build than someone else because that build suits us better.

Pro doesn't quite check that box though, but it's probably pretty close. Still my guess would be that Azure would win a lot of games with Skaven if he didn't use a RO, and Kingvan would win a lot of games as Vamps if he didn't use Pro (and to be honest, he didn't use Pro when the team was young anyway, and from record alone, seems to have won anyway). So how much of taking Pro is because it's necessary to make the team 'good' and how much of it is due to just not having any other skills which make the players that much 'better'?

Certainly there are players who run out of 'useful' skills to take at some point, and while Vampires may not really check that box exactly, you may not want or need multiple MB/Guard/Sidestep/whatever either.

MattDakka wrote:

licker wrote:

But anyway, Pro as a 'late' skill on a vampire probably doesn't cost you much.

Block, Dodge first, then Pro as third/fourth skill IF stats are not rolled meanwhile.

I'd think late is 4th at earliest, and probably 5th or 6th, but I have a hard time running teams that don't have some tackle and sure hands and mighty blow...

I can't see taking Pro before 4th skill myself, but maybe it's better on Vampire teams that don't try to take their TV very high.

zakatan

Joined: May 17, 2008

Posted: Apr 25, 2017 - 20:03

licker wrote:

MattDakka wrote:

licker wrote:

The problem (such as it is) with Pro, is that you have to plan for its failure anyway, because most of us are not going to risk those 50% no back up plans unless we simply have no other choice.

If you are planning for it to fail anyway (I'm talking about BL obviously, not other actions), then why do you even need it in the first place?

Because some not-turnover actions can be failed, yet you want them to be successful, for example Hypno Gazes.
And Hypno Gaze is just one example, I won more than 1 game by rerolling with Pro actions I could have not rerolled due to previous team rr use (for double skull or other turnover action).

Then this is an argument for pro for ANY player, not just Vampires.

Not really. Not many players can roll 3 non-turnover failures (that is, worth trying to pro-rr) every turn. I can't think of any other.

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MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: Apr 25, 2017 - 20:05

licker wrote:

Then this is an argument for pro for ANY player, not just Vampires.

Vampires have a negatrait and Hypnotic Gaze which can be failed, unlike other players, but benefit from not failing.
Also, Vampires have AG 4 and ST 4, so they may perform most of their blocking/ball handling/dodge actions with 2 dice blocks or a 2+. Being able to reroll high probability actions make Pro more appealing on them, I think.

licker wrote:

Kingvan would win a lot of games as Vamps if he didn't use Pro (and to be honest, he didn't use Pro when the team was young anyway, and from record alone, seems to have won anyway). So how much of taking Pro is because it's necessary to make the team 'good' and how much of it is due to just not having any other skills which make the players that much 'better'?
Certainly there are players who run out of 'useful' skills to take at some point, and while Vampires may not really check that box exactly, you may not want or need multiple MB/Guard/Sidestep/whatever either.

He generally takes Pro as third skill, after Block and Dodge. You can see it by checking the roster: https://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=751375
If he takes it as third skill I guess it's not just a skill to fill a slot, but has a quite high priority, otherwise he would take it as 5th-6th skill.
I know he played without Pro, but currently he plays with Pro on his Vampires.
Also, I remember that, during a game I was spectating he wrote to his opponent something like: "If you don't take Pro (on a Vampire) you will regret it",
so I guess Pro on Vampires is important for kingvan.
We should ask him to be 100% sure.

licker

Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Posted: Apr 25, 2017 - 20:16

zakatan wrote:

licker wrote:

MattDakka wrote:

licker wrote:

The problem (such as it is) with Pro, is that you have to plan for its failure anyway, because most of us are not going to risk those 50% no back up plans unless we simply have no other choice.

If you are planning for it to fail anyway (I'm talking about BL obviously, not other actions), then why do you even need it in the first place?

Because some not-turnover actions can be failed, yet you want them to be successful, for example Hypno Gazes.
And Hypno Gaze is just one example, I won more than 1 game by rerolling with Pro actions I could have not rerolled due to previous team rr use (for double skull or other turnover action).

Then this is an argument for pro for ANY player, not just Vampires.

Not really. Not many players can roll 3 non-turnover failures (that is, worth trying to pro-rr) every turn. I can't think of any other.

No, it's actually more important by that logic for players who do have turnovers isn't it? Or are you just not going to throw the block or attempt the dodge or gfi if you don't have a reroll?

zakatan

Joined: May 17, 2008

Posted: Apr 25, 2017 - 20:32

licker wrote:

No, it's actually more important by that logic for players who do have turnovers isn't it? Or are you just not going to throw the block or attempt the dodge or gfi if you don't have a reroll?

I often don't

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licker

Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Posted: Apr 25, 2017 - 22:19

zakatan wrote:

licker wrote:

No, it's actually more important by that logic for players who do have turnovers isn't it? Or are you just not going to throw the block or attempt the dodge or gfi if you don't have a reroll?

I often don't

Clearly it is sometimes correct not to. So you can say that there is no downside to hypno gaze as well, but a lot of the time the gaze itself is irrelevant when it's 'just something to do' instead of 'need this gaze to open up some tackle zones'.

If you have to make a dodge to improve your position you attempt the dodge. If you have to make a block you make the block.

Having or not having a reroll is immaterial.

So, why not Pro all menz then?

Quinn_Huck

Joined: May 16, 2016

Posted: Apr 25, 2017 - 22:39

I've seen kingvan play, and he seems to try to generate maximum pressure until the cage cracks without taking crazy risks. His pro rerolls help him do that. Every BL or Gaze roll that succeeds due to pro, simply adds a little bit extra pressure and opens up the opportunity to add some more with the next move. And on, and on, and on. The more pressure, the more likely the opponent is to fail something critical. I think that's what makes him such a successful vampire coach (and no, I certainly do not have the skills to play that way).

JellyBelly

Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Posted: Apr 25, 2017 - 23:34

I don't think Pro is garbage - I agree it is a useful skill to have on Vamps. It basically translates into fewer bitten thralls and more hypno gazes succeeding, which can only be a good thing. Plus, chances to reroll Blocks and chances for extra rerolls when your primary rerolls have been used. So, it has many benefits. It's just that, personally, I see Block/Dodge as a higher priority, as they are more reliable for preventing critical, turn-ending failures.

In addition, vamps obviously need Tackle, MB, Sidestep, Frenzy, stat-ups, etc. So, I find the question of where you fit in Pro in their development is kind of tricky.

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