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Poll
Would you participate in this tourney?
Yes
50%
 50%  [ 8 ]
No
31%
 31%  [ 5 ]
Depends on some specifics
18%
 18%  [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 16


mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post 20 Posted: May 12, 2018 - 10:01 Reply with quote Back to top

So im filled to the brim with energy at the moment and had a thought going through my mind late last night...

What if we had a tourney where we could do an auction, from a 'lot' of players that contained the entire breadth of every BB roster and whose non inherent skills were determined by the coaches participating in the auction?

Confused? Okay! Lets flesh it out!

1. Every player type from the standard BB rosters are available to nominate at auction but only in the amount they can possibly appear on their original roster.

Example:

In the auction lot there would be 2 Wardancers, 4 Woodie Catchers, 2 Woodie Throwers, 1 Treeman with loner. This is all available on the Woodie roster correct?

There would also be 2 Werewolves, 4 Wights, 6 Ghouls, 2 Mummies, 2 Flesh Golems, and 32 Zombies. This is all available between the Necro and Undead rosters correct?

Two Treemen without loner and 16 Halflings from Halflings, correct?

There would be several iterations of the same player type like Minotaurs with their skill access reflected in the name by team type, like Chaos Chosen Minotaur, Chaos Dwarf Minotaur, etc etc.

Okay so you following along on just how vast the choices will be and where supply issues in the lot will influence bid prices?

Cool.

2. Nominating players to auction and assigning skills.

First part is easy enough - we go in snake order to nominate any player available in the unauctioned player lot.

Assigning skills is a bit different and needs discussion of parameters. My first thought was this:

You get a pool of skills to assign to players you nominate. Every time you assign a skill to a nominee it is taken from your pool. You can not assign skills outside of a player's respective skill access, so no mutated elves.

Furthermore no assigning inherent skills to nominated players, so no regen elves.

You could stack doubles and stats so some maniacs could create natural one turners, debog clones, ST8 blodge deathroller but keep in mind you gotta pay for them and you have limited skills available and other coaches are bidding.

Pool of skills also needs to be defined. I thought the following would be a start:

1x +ST
2x +AG
3x +MA or +AV
6x Doubles
36x Normals

Also there would be a numerical limit on skills assigned to players but some flexibility would be allowed:

You can nominate
1x Legend (6 skills)
2x Super Stars (5 skills)
3x Stars (4 skills)
4x Emerging Stars (3 skills)
5x Veterans (2 skills)
6x Experienced (1 Skill)
7x Rookies (0 skills)

Mind you this would be up for discussion and Id appreciate a mathy dude writing a function to tie this to the amount of participants in the tourney. Ill say 16 coaches. In my mind I would like the opportunity for really amazing players and the potential capture of 2 legends by a single team but also prevent every team from having one due to opportunity cost and TV auction budget. Speaking of which...

3. TV Budget, player TV values and fixed costs

2000 TV?
Apo?
60k RRs?

The budget itself would constrain a ton of legends in the league and force some opportunity cost along the way. But what would be a good amount when considering the amount of teams and the skill pool and inherent TV values of players and their assigned skills? Mathy dudes, lend a hand?

Im for apos even with regen in play.

60k rerolls because its middle of the options and isnt a steep opportunity cost.

4. Reserve bids. They have to happen. One of the things I want to kind of prevent is coaches creating ugly babies that only they could love.

Example: First coach nominates a Bull Centaur with crappy skills like a legend sneaky git, pass block, etc etc, you get the drift. Okay, if that happened Id kick that coach out.

But lets just say that someone creates a player that nobody bids on. They can get that player at face value of TV if nobody else bids.

That solves one issue but reduces value seeking greatly. So Id propose that every player nominated starts at half face value. Bids are in 10k increments. I can hear an argument for 5k increments but...that is aesthetically ugly.

Example: someone nominates a DP zombie @ 60k. Bidding starts @ 30k and if no other coach bids the coach that nominated gets the DP zombie @ 60k. If one other coach bid and pushed the winning bid to 40k and the original coach bid 50k and no other bids come in then the nominating coach wins the auction for the DP zombie @ 50k.

5. Minimum player requirements and budget management.

You have to acquire 11 players minimum via auction. You can not bid in amount that would prevent you from this meeting this requirement.

Again, the figuring out a good balance of TV budget, to allow for various builds from minmax and star supplement to manmax teams with 16 players.

6. Special rules and cases.

This will need a lot of thought and there might be technological limits.

Example:
Do vampires need thralls? Id say no. But does the client require them?

Furthermore do thralls need to be 0-16 thralls? Id say yes.

Do you get a Halfling Hot Pot discount with Halfling players? Id say no.

50k bribes with gobbo secret weapon players? Maybe? But then what if that same team has a deathroller? And hires secret weapon players? You know thats actually kind of intriguing...

There are a lot of cases to mull over and we will have to do a lot of thinking on it.

7. Actual tourney format.

So very many options. I am not a fan of swiss tourneys but would hope the intrigue would prevent abandonment. Also what is the appropriate amount of games based on participants? Would there be a final 4 seed KO tourney for the top participants?

If we had 16, we could also do 7 round robin games with 2 divisions. Then an 8 seed single elimination KO or KOTH tourney?

32 and we could have 8 divisions with 4 teams. 6 game round robin with an 8 seed KO or KOTH single elimination tourney at the end?

How do we draw up divisions? Im partial for any leftover budget being used as a factor. Teams with no budget are randomly assigned to each division and then coaches with leftover budget, in order of how much they have left in descending order, can select where they go. The coach with the highest leftover budget can always pass to the next highest coach. There is no limit on the amount of passes until the lowest leftover budget coach.

8. Extra tourney parameters.

I would not want this to be a progression format. Team skills are static. There are no perms or mngs or journeymen. We can all have our fun with team building but this isnt the place. I want to see every team at their best in every game and strategic apo use among other things.

9. Inducements.

Star players available? Id say yes.

Again we would need to figure out the bribe and halfling chef. Finding value in star players could be and would be a fun aspect for some teams that miss in the draft. Would every star be available? Is that even possible?

Cards are cool.

Merc hires...I dont know about this one because defining linos for each team might not be easy. Depending on how that works in the custom rules you could make every player available as a merc but that seems dumb and tedious as hell to me. Like take the star or bid on the one skill non loner equivalent during the auction, for Nuffle's sake.

Multiple Apos? Why not?

10. Technology needs.

1. An auction system that I can customize player attributes on the fly from tv, to skill assignments including inherent and base skills. If an existing one exists, great. If not maybe someone could develop one or collaborate? If not that maybe a slick google doc with discord chat?

2. Custom league with custom rule set. Nuff said and thats a lot of work.

11. Coach Participants

Itd be anyone who helped construct the tourney whether thats custom ruleset and icon setup or figuring out an auction system. That seems only fair.

Secondly I would open it up to coaches that are really good and have interesting thoughts on team building and can articulate those thoughts. These would be invited coaches. Dakka, you're in if you want it. Wink

Third, the maniacs who want to try out very specific builds. Like the aformentioned secret weapon team. Or a many big guy team. Not cynical ones like an all snot team but truly unique and inspiring teams predicated on synergies or overload of a type of player. This would be by coaching petition.

Fourth, anyone and everyone else.

12. Why the hell did I go to this length? I seriously am interested in how people value individual players across team and this seems like a fun format to observe that. I also feel there is an opportunity over the course of many of these tourneys to start observing how we differently value player TV/skills and overall team synergy and tactical utility.

Also can use some of these observations to build our stock BB teams in Ranked and Box and how we approach tourney play.

Lets discuss it all!
To keep us on the rails, dont suggest something like Secret League players or custom fouling rules or wander away from the auction format.
sonrises



Joined: May 02, 2013

Post   Posted: May 12, 2018 - 11:05 Reply with quote Back to top

Wow. This is a lot of work to set up.... and...a tip, if you dont mind,... there are some dangers when you open up a roster completely. Some leagues have been or are experimenting with it...game might break if you dont rule against some builds (too many bigs in a roster, Uber Stat freaks, skills combos spam...). Nonetheless, please go ahead! don't get discouraged when first trouble come along! The idea seems interesting but needs refining probably.

Please, Feel free to use this Roster for your early experiments, it might save you a lot of work in the early stages of the league. I created this roster long ago hoping some league comish would use it to experiment with open rosters leagues... like you are proposing now! lol. You will find all CRP players in one roster.


Good luck with the league!

o/
DrPoods



Joined: Nov 14, 2013

Post   Posted: May 12, 2018 - 11:29 Reply with quote Back to top

Intriguing

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: May 12, 2018 - 12:46 Reply with quote Back to top

This kind of idea comes up all the time.

On the current system, it looks like a PITA to run. Or at least set up. Things that are a PITA tend to not last.

But... as it is non-progression I think (I didn't read it all) you should be able to do most of this manually.

Spreadsheets & custom rosters should do most of it. It looks basically like a draft league. There are draft leagues already running. Rather you than me though. Wink

Personally, I wouldn't be interested in non-progression.

IMO we could do with a mod to rosters to add what I'll call "positional groups."
We could then add player types to the groups and specify how many players could be taken from each group.
An extra layer would say that e.g. you could take 2 groups from groups A, B or C. Group D. One of group E, F or G. etc

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mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: May 12, 2018 - 17:33 Reply with quote Back to top

sonrises wrote:
Wow. This is a lot of work to set up.... and...a tip, if you dont mind,... there are some dangers when you open up a roster completely. Some leagues have been or are experimenting with it...game might break if you dont rule against some builds (too many bigs in a roster, Uber Stat freaks, skills combos spam...).


Hmmm, that's true. I feel like you're right, there should be some hard limits on some team builds. For instamce with Big Guys perhaps, 6 max to reflect the max limit seen on the Ogre roster.

With Secret Weapons, I might have to be talked off thr ledge about allowing the possibility of 1 team having all of them. That's the market loving neo liberal in me though.

You mentioned uber players and stat freaks and skill spam and my hope is that the auction format combined with a limited skill pool would reduce that to some extent. Part if the intrigue here is seeing if coaches have the balls to use their skill pool and player level pool to nominate players that they might not wind up winning at auction if the price gets too high.

For instance, would you use one of your Superstar nominations for a natural one turner gutter runner, knowing you could get outbid on that nomination and there are 4 total gutter runners available for this purpose? This is why I went down the road of nobid nominations going to the coach who nominated them at face value.

To me there is the potential to observe where coaches think a player type is ideal vis a vis selected skill amount. And what are the most favored skill combos for certain player types.

Take the flesh golem...perhaps when one of the two available is nominated many of the sizzle positions are already gone and there are some tv budget constraints and skill pool and skill level constraints. What is a Block, guard fleshie worth in the auction? I wanna see!


Quote:

Nonetheless, please go ahead! don't get discouraged when first trouble come along! The idea seems interesting but needs refining probably.


Oh absolutely! One refinement to simplify this would be bidding on pure skill packages that are nominated. So you would select your team type from the stock BB races and then we would go through the nominations of skill combos. The question then becomes how many of each team type would be allowed (highlander would be ridiculous imho).

Part of the reason i started thinking unbound team types was the propensity for coaches to self select the ones with percieved built in advantages or tier 1 if you play the tier game.

I kinda dont want to see only 8 to 10 team types represented but also dont want to compell coaches to play a team type like zons or undead because humans and necro are filled up.

Quote:

Please, Feel free to use this Roster for your early experiments, it might save you a lot of work in the early stages of the league. I created this roster long ago hoping some league comish would use it to experiment with open rosters leagues... like you are proposing now! lol. You will find all CRP players in one roster.


Good luck with the league!

o/


Thanks, that is helpful!


Last edited by mrt1212 on May 12, 2018 - 21:02; edited 2 times in total
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: May 12, 2018 - 17:51 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
This kind of idea comes up all the time.


Indeed! I actually was inspired by another thread related to a draft league and the slann blitzer thread.

Quote:
On the current system, it looks like a PITA to run. Or at least set up. Things that are a PITA tend to not last.


Amen! I think the most PITA aspect is the auction itself since a team of coaches doing the custom rosters could bang out the players quickly. Oh and also deciding on exact rules and exploring fringe cases.

Quote:

But... as it is non-progression I think (I didn't read it all) you should be able to do most of this manually.


Yup, nonprog. I want the tourney to be really be unbound by team building condiderations and tactical play to reflect the intensity of a semi final or final of a major or xfl game.

Quote:
Spreadsheets & custom rosters should do most of it. It looks basically like a draft league. There are draft leagues already running. Rather you than me though. Wink


HAHAHA, i already do run the NBFL which is a draft league but I really do lean on the help of other coaches like jackassrampant, bazakastine, drpoods and the wise sage jeffro for that.

Quote:
Personally, I wouldn't be interested in non-progression.

IMO we could do with a mod to rosters to add what I'll call "positional groups."
We could then add player types to the groups and specify how many players could be taken from each group.
An extra layer would say that e.g. you could take 2 groups from groups A, B or C. Group D. One of group E, F or G. etc


That could be a way to do it but my worry, justified or not is twofold with this:

Defining player groups and where players land and sameteamitis, that is basically this being too on the rails. Maybe you could describe it more?

In my mind, id kind of like the idea of some teams going to the extremes of their build with supplements from other rosters. When initially conceiving of this tourney I was struck by how I wanted to make positional nightmare elves. I really limited myself conceptually in making a whole team and didnt respect the best available player idea that I am familiar with from Fantasy Football (the american one).

To me, the grouping concept will perhaps provide more even footing but also reduce some really potentially intriguing teams, especiallly those that are working a specific game mechanic.

Thanks for the feedback on this. You and a handful of others have a ton of experience with some of this.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: May 13, 2018 - 21:18 Reply with quote Back to top

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1B8pb65x9iZk6j1Vo4worVL4Bp268vfB_1_1xCUby8wY/edit?usp=sharing

Ive started a sheet that can help scope out the parameters of the league. Spot checks on this are much appreciated and anyone who wants to take a stab at TV budget for the auction along with skill assignment costs have a starting point at least.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: May 14, 2018 - 00:31 Reply with quote Back to top

One stray thought that crossed my mind that would actually make the auction process a ton easier, and seriously a ton easier, is doing a silent auction format. Less exciting yes, and harder to hit the exact right marginal value of bids BUT...

As an auctioneer it would make a lot of things easier.

1. The nomination process would remain the same. We snake through nominating players with their various skills.
2. I only receive one bid per coach. Perhaps in the case of a tie between the two highest bids we go to a bid runoff, where the coaches that put in equal bids submit silent bids again and the winner takes home the player?

Just a thought but ummmmm, I'm digging it.
Wozzaa



Joined: Apr 23, 2016

Post   Posted: May 14, 2018 - 04:19 Reply with quote Back to top

Skim reading like a mo, but don't the guys from Three Die Block do a one day tourny much like this. Three Die Braft, or something?
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: May 14, 2018 - 04:33 Reply with quote Back to top

Wozzaa wrote:
Skim reading like a mo, but don't the guys from Three Die Block do a one day tourny much like this. Three Die Braft, or something?


Gonna have to give them a holler since one of the former NBFL coaches is a 3DB contributor.
asteflix



Joined: Jan 20, 2014

Post   Posted: May 14, 2018 - 06:42 Reply with quote Back to top

Blind auction with pre-draft player creating with players being randomly selected to be bid upon sounds like it could be a lot of a lot of a lot of stuff. mostly fun.

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bghandras



Joined: Feb 06, 2011

Post   Posted: May 14, 2018 - 08:15 Reply with quote Back to top

I would be interested in a simplified version. I have put some work into projects that seem to be relevant. Contact me privately if you are interested. I might be the guy with maths

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Klazam



Joined: Aug 01, 2015

Post   Posted: May 14, 2018 - 08:33 Reply with quote Back to top

My thoughts:

Stage 1: the admin rolls a list of 32 players (repeats possible) for each of (X number of coaches)
Stage 2: Coaches select 16 of these 32, put skills on them (following restrictions as determined by admin), submit these 16 to admin (privately)
Stage 3: admin collects all potential players, then randomly selects one of them.
Stage 4: coaches bid (silent or bidding war-style, to be determined). Winner gets player. If no bids, player is DELETED (or something) - Note: coaches ONLY know their 16 they submitted. the rest are suprises -
Stage 5: and repeat until all teams run out of budget or all players is drafted (if a coach cant afford to fill a team with 11 mens, fill that team with the players with lowest TV possible from among the "deleted" players)

This answers a lot of the potential problems that i can see. Also answers the awkwardness of attempting to enforce the 11 mens rule with variable player values.

(Credit also goes to Asteflix, we discussed this roughly)
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: May 14, 2018 - 09:07 Reply with quote Back to top

Klazam, at the very least, I like the idea of divvying up the list of players ahead of time - no matter if it's 8, 16 or 32 coaches, the idea of doing the skills ahead of time and randomized and in secret from other coaches would be a huge time saver.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: May 14, 2018 - 17:21 Reply with quote Back to top

bghandras wrote:
I would be interested in a simplified version. I have put some work into projects that seem to be relevant. Contact me privately if you are interested. I might be the guy with maths


I feel much better now that you're dipping your toe in the water Very Happy
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