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PurpleChest



Joined: Oct 25, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 26, 2020 - 14:34
FUMBBL Staff
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Hi, My nickname is PurpleChest, often called PC.

I Run the 145 League/Club on FUMBBL, take part in the WIL and have played several other league concepts in my time on FUMBBL.

Recently I have accepted a promotion to 'Admin' status, and been charged with special responsibility for L Division. So for help, assistance, grumbles and worries in L feel free to come to me. I'm not sure I'll be able to help, but I am sure I will listen and try.

'L' is not one thing, and does not need a 'head' or to be controlled or unified. 'L' is many things and should remain so.

From the huge eternal leagues like SWL to 7's, secret league, Draft leagues, NAF leagues, small private leagues and I could go on and on, please forgive me if your L favorite is not listed. The point is 'L' is about freedom and diversity, and so it should remain.

But Blood Bowl 2020 is coming, and WILL change things. there is an extensive thread on what will happen to FUMBBL, and of course that impacts on L division. But I think it is clear we need somewhere to thrash through what it does/might mean for L and what L wants Christer, and anyone assisting him, to prioritise for L.




So, anyone is welcome to comment and add to this thread, I am aware I am asking for a lot of stuff to be reposted that may have been covered/said in other threads, but I feel it would be sensible and useful jto have L thoughts in their own place. I would love someone SWL to lay out there experiences of running seasons in L here, for Secret League to talk about transition here etc. etc. even for people running small private leagues to talk here about BB2020 and what it might mean for them.

BUT it would really help if anyone posting were to mention, at least in their first post, their league experience/positions. people that have never played L are still welcome to talk about it of course, but experience IS relevant to this thread.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 26, 2020 - 14:44 Reply with quote Back to top

I think that adding a blind scheduler (like the Box one) to League division would be nice.
If not to whole League division, at least to Secret League.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 26, 2020 - 15:13 Reply with quote Back to top

Position: Senior whinger, whiner & moaner.

Experience: 145 Club Founder, Secret League Open co commissioner, OLC founder (on hiatus), + others. Commish & staff of hundereds of events, mainly KOs, open leagues and progression Swiss tournaments

Leagues played in: WIL, IoMT, 145 Club, SLO etc

Main wishlist (if feasible): Old style skills progression option. BB2016 option. Schedulers for leagues..

Concerns:
"Regular" open league (no seasons?) being overrun but monster teams and ultra min/maxers.
Fragmentaion of "Open" and not being able to play across rulesets

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PurpleChest



Joined: Oct 25, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 26, 2020 - 15:41
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good points Koadah, under concerns you list fragmentation of 'Open' and not being able to play across rulesets.

Is there a case for 2 'L's? One for any L team using the main rule set (allowing interactive play, between SWL and WIL for example), and a different one for leagues/groups that have their own ruleset and doesnt allow interactive play between teams from differing rulesets?

Maybe a division would actually make things clearer and easier?
L for 2020 compliant leagues?
E for expirimental rule sets?

If not then maybe just very strong warnings that if you make a team under a non standard ruleset, it will not be able to play people from outside that ruleset.

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Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 26, 2020 - 16:02 Reply with quote Back to top

Main wish -
Scheduler for SL. Adjust the time that a draw is made so it does not clash with the scheduler in Blackbox. Have the draw 10 minutes after the Blackbox one.
Much less important regarding the scheduler – If possible with a variable/customisable algorithm e.g. max tv gaps allowed. Number of games before allowed TV gap increases. Option to make it so Season 1 teams are much more likely to be drawn against other season 1 teams.

Other Wishes
Options to adjust the Redraft cap/switch it off
Custom Season length (X number of games or infinite)
Option to allow/disallow teams to “click End Season” whenever they want, also if this option is used we would need something to determine how many games are counted for season e.g Maximum number of games that can count towards seasons during re-draft X.
During - “Off-Season break” “raise funds” phases can we have – Customisable: Gold per game, per tie, per loss, per win, per TD and per Cas
Classify games as “Friendlies” as mentioned on page 97 of the new rules. Or a tournament as “friendlies”.
Classic Skill selection and skill progression option (e.g. LRB6 skill spp, cost, selection and skill progression).
Retain the options we currently have allowing the use Spiralling Expenses if we wish.
Retain the option for customisable Expensive Mistakes.
Retain the option for Secret Weapon Rolls
Option to revert to CRP cash/inducement phase.
Option to switch off Prayers to Nuffle table

Throw Team-Mate skill now needs a minimum required Strength, allow this X number to be variable in team creation in the same way Secret Weapon Rolls are handled.

Customisable “Value increase” for Random Primary and Secondary Skills and standard Primary and Secondary Skills, and stat increases.

Assign Race Specific Key Word inducements to teams E.G. Bribery and Corruption, or Halfling Thimble Cup.

Big Concern - Secret League Open is ran off one rule set, because of the way 2016 edition rules currently work people that run private leagues often currently just use the SLO rule set and make a league. How will this work if for example we decide SLO would use 15 game seasons and have no redraft cap. Would that force every other league that uses my rule set to use the same length seasons and redraft rules? Or would they still be able to manually adjust these things for their private leagues. How would these things interface with each other?
Similarly - how will mini tournaments work with an open division. Currently we have Rookie Royal Rumble, mid and high TV minors for Secret League. These are tournaments but I would not want them to force a redraft once they are completed. Because they are typically only 4 or 6 games long. Maybe if they are “tagged” as friendlies? Or something?
Do we need to leave the SL rule set for public access to make their own private league then start a new rule set specifically for Secret League Open with a scheduler?

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mister__joshua



Joined: Jun 20, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 26, 2020 - 16:17
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Main Wish
I understand this is selfish and low-priority but it is something that’s been spoken about in the past...
I’d like the option to play games on tabletop and input the results into Fumbbl. This would allow hybrid tabletop/Fumbbl leagues or even just fully tabletop leagues that use Fumbbl for stat tracking, seasons etc.


Also on Garion’s concerns, I think those people using the SLO rule set but wanting differing season options would need to:
1) create their own rule set
2) import the SL rosters as external teams
3) transfer the teams into this new league/ruleset

That’s my understanding of it anyway. They could then use the SL rosters but retain control of their own seasons. If you changed the season settings directly in the SLO ruleset I believe this would impact all teams using it.

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Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 26, 2020 - 16:44 Reply with quote Back to top

mister__joshua wrote:


Also on Garion’s concerns, I think those people using the SLO rule set but wanting differing season options would need to:
1) create their own rule set
2) import the SL rosters as external teams
3) transfer the teams into this new league/ruleset

That’s my understanding of it anyway. They could then use the SL rosters but retain control of their own seasons. If you changed the season settings directly in the SLO ruleset I believe this would impact all teams using it.


Yes I also believe this to be the case, I think we might need to reach out to these league admin to make this as smooth a transition as possible. So we do not give them so much work they down tools and quit.

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 26, 2020 - 17:37 Reply with quote Back to top

PurpleChest wrote:
good points Koadah, under concerns you list fragmentation of 'Open' and not being able to play across rulesets.

Is there a case for 2 'L's? One for any L team using the main rule set (allowing interactive play, between SWL and WIL for example), and a different one for leagues/groups that have their own ruleset and doesnt allow interactive play between teams from differing rulesets?

Maybe a division would actually make things clearer and easier?
L for 2020 compliant leagues?
E for expirimental rule sets?

If not then maybe just very strong warnings that if you make a team under a non standard ruleset, it will not be able to play people from outside that ruleset.


Probably not two Ls.

I would expect SWL & WIL to abandon the main ruleset in order to run their own version(s) of seasons. If not now, maybe later. I believe that Open League will have no seasons.
That is assuming that the site will accomodate SWL seasons. Wink
The cross ruleset thing is mainly an "open" issue. Especially gamefinder. If SWL & WIL want to play an occasional challenge or super bowl, they can import teams into a common ruleset then import them back afterwards. They could also clone teamms.

People need to be in the same division so that they can switch to custom leagues even though they cannot switch back. Thet can switch to other custom leagues though.

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 26, 2020 - 17:42 Reply with quote Back to top

+1 to all Garion's wishes Mr. Green

@Garion: Are we proposing that SLO run on old-style progression/skill selection?

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mekutata



Joined: May 03, 2015

Post   Posted: Aug 26, 2020 - 17:51 Reply with quote Back to top

I run a fresh league (XXXL) that very much focuses on using fumbbl's current league options. And I enjoyed playing in other more conservative leagues (HUBBAs, WIL) and observe some more (the fluffy Kiwis and Canadians)

Some of these leagues really have a lot of dedication and fluff build up. I guess some of them, and some of real life TT leagues would rather stick with the old rules. I am positive that Christer will offer some options as the current League already offers a lot of modification possibilities for league owners. So I could see him allowing leagues to have skill progress the current way.

But I wonder about the skills themselves. I want to assume that the new BB2020 ruleset has been designed well, with different layers blending well together. Including the new skills and rule adaptions of old skills combined with skill progression combined with the stronger emphasis on seasons with rebuy phases.
I don't think combining the new skills with the old skill progression would be advisable. I guess if people want to stick with the old they'd rather keep nearly all the old, including the old skill compositions and skill rulesets.
I wonder if this is something Christer is open to, as the old Dodge/Stand Firm skill combination is currently possible to be activated. Maybe league admins can choose between bb16 and bb20 skills for their league? Or in general choose to use current settings or new bb2020 settings.
In general I believe it'd be advisable if nothing that is possible to do now is gone after shifting fumbbl to bb2020. After all tabletop could also simply keep the old rule sets.

If we can add "wishes":
Full customisation of league table (including TD and Cas)
A way to reuse already uploaded icons when creating new rosters.
Change of term "races" to "roster".

I am positive that customisation of race specific inducement costs will come as there are now more OG teams with modified bribes than only Goblins.

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Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 26, 2020 - 18:29 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
+1 to all Garion's wishes Mr. Green

@Garion: Are we proposing that SLO run on old-style progression/skill selection?


no, but I believe cibbl will likely use old progression, and bibbl might adopt more of the new rules.

SLO i really need to see what options we have. I.e the scheduler before making any decisions.

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 26, 2020 - 19:40 Reply with quote Back to top

Can SLO teams successfully transfer into CIBBL? I am thinking maybe not.

Is there an open scene there;

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 26, 2020 - 21:25 Reply with quote Back to top

Speaking for Razmus (which I shouldn't do, but I want to make sure its noted here), he has multiple leagues (Isle of Misfit Teams and Secret Isle of Misfit Teams) where the express stated intention of those leagues is to take teams that were in a different league which stopped being used.

Classically this means that he targets people from 145 club AND people from open League, but he also wants to take people from basically any other league at all, and allow them in.

Therefore, ideally, a way to 'transfer' teams between rulesets would be amazing. In other words, say you have a team that was built in a ruleset where +1 to fouls existed, and spp progression was including the extra skill at 126 spp, then you WOULD be able to import that team to the 'standard' open league (only with that leagues commissioners express consent); and anything unusual (like a 7th skill) would simply be grandfathered into the new ruleset, but going forward the team and players would follow all the rules of the new ruleset.

While I realize this isn't possible in all cases (for instance, open league doesn't have a formal league commisioner except maybe Christer, so we wouldn't expect him to approve all of those), or technically feasible (for instance, if someone could somehow get an Arm Bar skill in one rule set, but not in another one, then that could screw up the client maybe), I would like to see transfers where different definitions just change (for instance, in the original ruleset you use that Stand Firm allows you to avoid a failed dodge and simply not move instead; you switch rule sets, you keep Stand Firm, and now, that does what it says in CRP).
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 26, 2020 - 21:29 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
Can SLO teams successfully transfer into CIBBL? I am thinking maybe not.

Is there an open scene there;


No CIBBL is the equivilent to WIL or SWL except for SL, It is a standard league environment but pretty huge, one of if not the biggest league on the site. There is much talk going on about the new edition like everywhere else, they have a sister league called BIBBL that is a bit smaller, one idea that seems quite possible is CIBBL will keep the old style progression and no seasons while bibbl will adopt the newer format.

As for transferring team from SLO to CIBBL, no currently it's not possible but that's not an issue really.

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 26, 2020 - 22:06 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
Speaking for Razmus (which I shouldn't do, but I want to make sure its noted here), he has multiple leagues (Isle of Misfit Teams and Secret Isle of Misfit Teams) where the express stated intention of those leagues is to take teams that were in a different league which stopped being used.

Classically this means that he targets people from 145 club AND people from open League, but he also wants to take people from basically any other league at all, and allow them in.

Therefore, ideally, a way to 'transfer' teams between rulesets would be amazing. In other words, say you have a team that was built in a ruleset where +1 to fouls existed, and spp progression was including the extra skill at 126 spp, then you WOULD be able to import that team to the 'standard' open league (only with that leagues commissioners express consent); and anything unusual (like a 7th skill) would simply be grandfathered into the new ruleset, but going forward the team and players would follow all the rules of the new ruleset.

While I realize this isn't possible in all cases (for instance, open league doesn't have a formal league commisioner except maybe Christer, so we wouldn't expect him to approve all of those), or technically feasible (for instance, if someone could somehow get an Arm Bar skill in one rule set, but not in another one, then that could screw up the client maybe), I would like to see transfers where different definitions just change (for instance, in the original ruleset you use that Stand Firm allows you to avoid a failed dodge and simply not move instead; you switch rule sets, you keep Stand Firm, and now, that does what it says in CRP).


I am guessing that transfer into standard league is disallowed to avoid cheating. Playing against standard league teams could be enabled at the flick of a switch.

Teams on gamefinder could be suckered into playing against a team built by cheating. People often don't check their opponent's roster.

IoMT & SIoMT should be OK. IoMT is ruleset 6 and SIoMT is 303.

It would be great if you could play vs any team without transferring. If the ruleset differed then 6 would be used for the game. The team's own ruleset would be used for post match though.

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