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Dalfort



Joined: Jun 23, 2008

Post   Posted: Oct 21, 2021 - 00:15 Reply with quote Back to top

Java wrote:
hands up if you can go on gamefinder and get offered a decent, fun, winnable match within minutes

o/

bonus points if in the meantime you also get pinged to death by tier 1 hardliners (but only on your lower tier teams Twisted Evil )


Games against me don't count Razz

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 21, 2021 - 00:16 Reply with quote Back to top

RedFish wrote:
Verminardo wrote:
Hahahaha koadah has been opinionated about the Box for about a hundred years without ever playing a single match in it.


A quick look at his profile which seems to feature 100+ blackbox matches shows this to be untrue. Why say it?


297 and I'm still not quite 100 years old. Mr. Green

mekutata wrote:

You played 0 games in 2020 ruleset. Maybe you should try it for once before you form an opinion?


I need an opinion to decide whether it is worth putting any time into. Wink

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garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 21, 2021 - 02:19 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm looking forward to the redraft of my Box and ranked teams. Rather sad that we have been without a scheduler for a while, and it will be good to get the draft remnants of the old teams back into action.

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Java



Joined: Jan 27, 2018

Post   Posted: Oct 21, 2021 - 12:03 Reply with quote Back to top

Dalfort wrote:

Games against me don't count Razz


that was a tournament match, not an offer Razz
Christer



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Oct 21, 2021 - 16:25
FUMBBL Staff
Reply with quote Back to top

Interestingly enough, R and B are still options right now. The community as a whole has pretty clearly said this is not the way they want to play (5-6 R games per day, practically 0 B games per day).

There's a lot of huffing and puffing about how the Box system is better, or that picking opponents is better. The reality is that some people prefer the gamefinder, while others prefer the box. Claiming one system is superior to the other is just outright naïve and is just projecting your own preference onto others.

If one system was objectively better, it would become dominant and the worse system would die off. This is exactly what has happened with the C division opening. People want to play BB2020, and the other alternatives practically die off. A lot of L leagues are converting to bb2020 as well, even with lacking support for such a transition and essentially requiring new sets of teams.

There is no high road here; there is no division or system that's clearly better. If people could simply accept this, we'd have less rehashing of the same arguments over and over again.

Blackbox isn't better. Ranked isn't better. League isn't better. It's all Blood Bowl, and people simply want to play the game in different ways.
argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 21, 2021 - 16:41 Reply with quote Back to top

Christer wrote:


Blackbox isn't better. Ranked isn't better. League isn't better. It's all Blood Bowl, and people simply want to play the game in different ways.


I agree at 100%.

Hopefully we will have soon the BB2020 Black Box ready (including new Glicko Rating System) so the masterpiece of the whole FUMBBL's migration to BB2020 will be completed Smile
JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Oct 21, 2021 - 16:49 Reply with quote Back to top

Well Christer, I suppose the point is that some people believe that the existence of a mixed system pretty much nullifies the "validity" of one of the two. If some people can choose their games and get a rank out of it, those who choose an automated pairing will be at a disadvantage.

While I made abundantly clear that I do not agree with MattDakka nor with his debating style, the idea in itself has some reason behind it.

You are right that neither system is inherently better than the other. But that's not the point. Which is better was never the point. The point is that those who prefer one, want ONE. Having both for them is as bad as having the worst one.

That's not really something fixable I suppose, but it's not a matter of letting one system dominate the other. When you opened B, R didn't die. So there's clearly enough activity on the site to support both. The question is not which one is better, the question is if they should be merged or not.

(I think).

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argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 21, 2021 - 16:58 Reply with quote Back to top

JanMattys wrote:
. The question is not which one is better, the question is if they should be merged or not.

(I think).


I personally believe the best solution would be a migration which keep separated Competitive and Box (so if you create a Team for the Competitive you cannot use in Box).
So, redraft the teams we have created to play in BB2016 Box, migrate to the 2020 roster, but keep Box separated.

this would be my wish.
MerryZ



Joined: Nov 28, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 21, 2021 - 17:37 Reply with quote Back to top

argos_72 wrote:
JanMattys wrote:
. The question is not which one is better, the question is if they should be merged or not.

(I think).


I personally believe the best solution would be a migration which keep separated Competitive and Box (so if you create a Team for the Competitive you cannot use in Box).
So, redraft the teams we have created to play in BB2016 Box, migrate to the 2020 roster, but keep Box separated.

this would be my wish.


May I ask why?

I personally felt really sad that I couldnt play against my friends with my B teams as those were the teams I played most.

There was many good rivalry games when me and my friends used to play with R teams more.

So I do like that you can play same team in both matchmaking scheduler and agreed games.

And if there is a problem with ranking, just make both gamefinder and scheduler games unranked sandbox games. Count ranking only from official fumbbl tournee games.
MiBasse



Joined: Dec 04, 2004

Post   Posted: Oct 21, 2021 - 17:57 Reply with quote Back to top

MerryZ wrote:

May I ask why?

I personally felt really sad that I couldnt play against my friends with my B teams as those were the teams I played most.

There was many good rivalry games when me and my friends used to play with R teams more.

So I do like that you can play same team in both matchmaking scheduler and agreed games.

And if there is a problem with ranking, just make both gamefinder and scheduler games unranked sandbox games. Count ranking only from official fumbbl tournee games.


I can't answer for them, but as someone who almost exclusively played Blackbox (and League) after it was introduced, I don't personally like the idea of being able to face a team that can sort of "sit out" the potential rough parts of a matchmaker. In theory I could do the same, but I'll be honest - gamefinder is almost anxiety inducing for me, and I'd rather just play in a division, where I don't have to feel like I'm sandbagging my own team compared to others, because gamefinder is stressing me out.
MerryZ



Joined: Nov 28, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 21, 2021 - 18:06 Reply with quote Back to top

Well its not like you only got fair matches on TV MM box on 2016 format ?

There was coaches who played 100+ game teams against teams with less than 10games played, I personally didnt like to play those matches either or did want to minmax teams to that state either.

Hopefully redraftin and new matchmaking gets rid of that. I dont think that if you play hardcore (if thats still the name for it ?) teams against a team that is normal C team you are in much of a disadvantage, atleast not at all as big disadvantage than befeore on new team against farmed minmax team.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 21, 2021 - 18:11 Reply with quote Back to top

1) The best option is having Box-only scheduler for Competitive division.
No picking allowed and the small userbase is not split. Moreover, this would ensure that everybody joining a Major would have not picked his games. It's fairer if everybody plays with the same scheduling system;

2) The second option, in logical order, is having 2 separate divisions, like we had before, Ranked and Box. The con is that there are not enough coaches to support 2 divisions on this site;

3) The last option is having a single Competitive division with both GF and Box-scheduler enabled, which is what Christer will do, according to his blog.
While it's not totally illogical, because it doesn't split up the userbase, it's not completely logical either, because teams with different pairing systems are in the same division. Logic says: don't mix up different things, if you are interested in ranking and evaluing them accurately.
A coach with Amazons never playing vs Dwarfs and Chaos Dwarfs could be higher in the racial Amazon rank than a coach playing only-scheduler games with Amazons and facing Dwarfs and Chaos Dwarfs. This would create unfairness in rankings.

Nobody says that GF must be deleted or that people must play with Box-only scheduler in every division. GF should be used only in League division, so you can play vs friends or fun teams and weird rosters.

GF is not a good system to find competitive games.
If nobody offers/accepts a fair game you spend literally hours on the GF without playing.
So, it's not a matter of taste between liking more the GF or the Box, it's impossibility of playing a game.
The name should be changed into "ScreenStarer".
Moreover, you have to stay close to the PC to check the offers and to reload the page.
I mean, I'm here to play competitive Blood Bowl games, not to watch a screen.
I do something else in the meantime, so it's not a problem, but the GF fails at what it is supposed to do.
MiBasse



Joined: Dec 04, 2004

Post   Posted: Oct 21, 2021 - 18:20 Reply with quote Back to top

MerryZ wrote:
Well its not like you only got fair matches on TV MM box on 2016 format ?

There was coaches who played 100+ game teams against teams with less than 10games played, I personally didnt like to play those matches either or did want to minmax teams to that state either.

Hopefully redraftin and new matchmaking gets rid of that. I dont think that if you play hardcore (if thats still the name for it ?) teams against a team that is normal C team you are in much of a disadvantage, atleast not at all as big disadvantage than befeore on new team against farmed minmax team.


I never played during 2016 rules, so I can't speak to that.

That there was an unfair aspect to matchmaking as it was, does not mean that introducing another unfair aspect means nothing.

If I stepped in something gross on the way to a party, and then it starts raining doesn't mean that raining doesn't make it worse.

If anything, barriers to the unfairness of the other issues should be adressed (there were barriers introduced to matchmaking to avoid rookie teams facing super optimized teams that stayed around 1000-1500 TV).

In the instance of mixing GF and MM, where I would be hard pressed to use the GF, but someone else is happy to use it, we're not playing in the same format, and that's bothersome.

I don't agree with MattDakka that it's because the CR isn't "fair", because CR isn't a reward. It's an indicator of your own success over time.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 21, 2021 - 18:22 Reply with quote Back to top

Success changes if you can pick your opponents or not.
MiBasse



Joined: Dec 04, 2004

Post   Posted: Oct 21, 2021 - 18:24 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Success changes if you can pick your opponents or not.


Yes, in which case, you've changed your own frames for success by choosing to pick. Much like choosing to play more or less competitive teams.
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